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169162 No. 169162
Thread 23 >>163582
Thread 24 >>165724
Thread 25 >>168076


In which a writefag condemns himself to hell.





[X] Mordenkainen's Magnificent Thunderdome


A horde of deadly spirits encircle you, the flames of the burning Library mingling with their ethereal forms in a hypnotic, Stygian nightmare. As they crowd in, preparing to overwhelm you, something surges and roils deep in your heart, finally surfacing from the mindless rage.

Umbrage.

“YOU COWARDLY BITCH!” you roar. After all the scheming, high-class disdain and airs of arrogance, Remilia doesn't even have enough pride to fight her own battles. Umbrage swells in your breast, clean, pure and righteous. Wizards are surprisingly vulnerable once you look past their impressive potential; and once you finally reach the peak of your power, hardly recognizable as a mere mortal, you find you're the smallest and weakest creature in an entirely new pond; the vast and terrifying reaches of the Planes themselves.

In short, a Wizard lives or dies on their reputation. If there's one thing you cannot tolerate – or afford - it is disrespect.

Acting on inspiration, you cast a spell you'd planned for a much different use – Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. Latching onto Remilia with your mighty iron claws, you rear back and hurl yourself through the extra-dimensional portal.

You deposit Remilia's charred, smoking form in the lobby. You quickly revert to your normal form, and gesture at the Mansion's horde of Unseen Servants to your side. A few quick castings of Fabricate later, and your Servants have re-attired Remilia and yourself.

Now free of the superheated air and scorching lava, Remilia's natural regeneration works its unholy power. Within minutes she is stirring, and at long last she looks up to find you standing halfway down the Mansion's grand staircase, wearing a brand-new cape.

“I am... Vizard,” you say grandly, swishing your new cape. “I bid you... velcome.

Remilia takes a long double-take, then slowly reaches up and pinches her cheek.

“Oh, it's happening, you cowardly bitch,” you sneer. Remilia's eyes flare as her face twists with hate, launching herself straight at you like an arrow -

- your solid iron fist collides with her jaw, flinging her bodily down the staircase.

“AND IT'S GONNA KEEP HAPPENING, YOU BACKSTABBING STRUMPET!” you bellow after the tumbling vampire. You throw your hands towards the ceiling and seize the subtle energies of the spell, manipulating them with all your arcane skill. The walls begin to warp and stretch, and soon the very structure of the mansion is pulling away from you at high speed, the ceiling zooming upward. Tall marble columns support a vaulted, arched ceiling. With a snap of your fingers, they are wreathed in fire – for illumination and a little more class.

“What's the point of this?” Remilia marvels. “You had the advantage. My allies were already defeated. Why?”

“Because you insulted me,” you say crossly, “and we're going to settle this with class. I thought I could depend on your obvious noble blood for that, but apparently you need a refresher!”

“You insult the name of Scarlet?” Remilia snaps, thrusting a finger at you. “Very well! You shall taste the true power and skill of my line! I challenge you to a duel!”

“Accepted!” you roar. “I have obviously chosen the place, so you may pick the weapon. Whatever skinny pig-stickers or lightweight shit you weak-armed Frenchies use, go for it!”

“French!?” Remilia sneers. “You think my lineage French!? I am an ancient noblewoman of Espania!” She thumps her closed fists against her chest, and you're blinded by a bright nova of scarlet light. When your vision returns, you see Remilia standing ten feet tall, her pectoral muscles rippling under her bronzed skin, wearing nothing but tight shorts, a steel bra, and a brilliant red mask.

“YOU SHALL TASTE THE POWER OF LA LUCHA!” she screams, and launches herself at you like a bullet, fast and furious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWDn9g00WCw&list=PLBA3F1690E8ADF5E7

You fling yourself into a forward knee-slide, catching her at the waist and shoulder and throwing her over your back effortlessly, using her own momentum against her. Remilia's new, mighty form bounces off the black marble floor of the Thunderdome. She rises ponderously.

“WHAT SORCERY IS THIS!?” she demands. “WHAT COULD DEFY THE POWER OF LUCHA?”

You rise, taking your time, letting her absorb the magnificence of your new form. You pinch your new nose, a red bulb. A single sonorous honk echoes through the Thunderdome.

“A jape!?” she cries. “You mock me again?”

“Indeed,” you reply. “Life is a grand tragedy, but afterward it is I who command the stage. In the clutch of suffering, in the heart of darkness, it is laughter, dreadful laughter rising from the tears that reveals man to himself as a fool - and that wisdom sets him free. I am the fool for the lost. I teach them to laugh. And when the tragedy is finished and the blood has dried upon the arena floor, it is always the Rodeo Clown who laughs last.

“That may be so,” Remilia says, “but a ring-out is still a defeat, and out of this ring you will be flung!”

“Out of this extra-dimensional space?” you query.

“NO BORDER CAN WITHSTAND MY ULTIMATE TECHNIQUE!” she cries. “BEHOLD! SCARLET BULLET – RECONQUISTA OF THE HOMELAND!” Remilia charges you again, flipping herself airborne into a brilliant spinning torpedo of Lucha power and Latin charisma. The air itself ignites as she tears through it like the unstoppable force she is.

“It can't be helped,” you mutter. “I'll have to use... that.

Remilia hits you, the power of LUCHA detonating with a mighty cymbal clash. You go hurtling through the air towards the wall of the THUNDERDOME – and go bouncing off! Remilia watches in amazement as you ricochet off the walls and pillars of the THUNDERDOME, finally rolling to a stop before her.

“But how?”

You crawl forward, reach down and carefully pick up nothing, setting it upright. Remilia lashes out, her mighty hand seizing upon something solid, but invisible.

“... invisible barrel?” she cries. “But how?”

“The forbidden technique,” you reply. “MIME powers!”

“I know a trick worth two of that!” Remilia cries. “I shall fight with my amigos, my dos gringos!

“Go ahead!” you challenge her. “Summon your spooks!”

“I, Remilia Scarlet, Luchador Extrordinare, call – for BLACKUP!” she cries, thrusting her fist at the ceiling. From an extra-dimensional rift on either side of her come the ghosts of Freddie Hubbard and Don Cherry. Remilia produces a violin, and they assault you with a blast of mad Mariachi style, buffeting you with the sheer power of their charisma and bitchin swingin' syncopation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9eTAhPUbJQ

“OBJECTION!” you cry, thrusting one mighty digit towards their impromptu band. “You two can't rock out like that, because you're ghosts! Now you're white!

“Aw, shit,” Hubbard says, looking down at himself. “That just threw me off my groove.”

“Never fear,” you reply, “for the greatest bard of all is, in fact, HERE!”

“... Shakespere?” hazards Cherry.

“FUCK NO,” you cry. “The man who journeyed from black to white, but never lost his bardic might!” An awesome hat appears over your head and tilts over your brow, and your hips start jiving on their own with amazing style. “To show you – it doesn't matter if you're BLACK OR WHITE!”

In a brilliant flash of splendorous awesomeocity, Michael Jackson is made manifest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgnlZs3uB2Q

Hubbard and Cherry flock to your side as Remilia gapes. “Traitors!” she cries after them.”

“Fool! Did you really think you could control the power of sick swing?” you retort. The kings of swing begin blowing some mad tunes as Remilia's ghost army rises behind you, providing the bass line with their hands and feet. Ray Charles manifests out of nowhere to back them up on a keytar. Your new army advances on Remilia with well-synchronized swaying, lurching in time to the stronk beat.

Remilia retreats before your wicked sweet tunes, and finally collapses. “I concede!” she cries. “I can't match your sick beats!”

You and your musical titans slam thunderous high-fives before they vanish in a puff of style. Alone, undefeated, you stand – master of Mordenkainen's Magnificent THUNDERDOME!




[ ] I never asked for this
[X] Yes. Yes, we did.

>> No. 169164
>“... Shakespere?”

You are literally the worst.
>> No. 169167
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169167
>>169164

Says the man who wrote reverse-rape tentacle porn and Sakuya rape-baby farming.

... wait. That actually makes sense. Only you could read that update and find "Shakespere" to be the most awful part. This is why you were good at debate, nobody could beat you in the race to the bottom.

But god dammit I am going to try.
>> No. 169168
Is this actually a thing.

I

I dont care if it's real, my sides have ascended into orbit.
>> No. 169169
File 137004071867.jpg - (1.13MB , 1336x6648 , ramen.jpg ) [iqdb]
169169
this is how I feel
>> No. 169170
>>169167
It sounds so clinical when you call it "rape-baby farming".

Also yes, why do you think topicality was my favorite thing?
>> No. 169171
>>169167
I am a little confused as to how you can tell this one random anonymous from the other.
>> No. 169172
So /th/ has just entirely gone full retarded, right?
>> No. 169173
>>169171
Mostly because it was me and I was making fun of him for this exact thing on IRC.
>> No. 169174
...this is a joke update...right? If not, could someone at least figure out what book the clown super-grappler is from and how Wizanon came across 21 ranks of profession(mime) mid-battle?
>> No. 169175
File 137004199183.jpg - (162.74KB , 400x400 , 1273860722845.jpg ) [iqdb]
169175
>This whole update
Ok Demetrious, gotta hand it to you, this is crazy awesome.
...and we probably did ask for it.
>> No. 169176
>>169167
>Says the man who wrote reverse-rape tentacle porn and Sakuya rape-baby farming.

...Wait, how can you recognize Rabbit even though he's posting as Anonymous?

Hmm, suspicious. Suspicious indeed.
>> No. 169177
>>169174

Sweet Jesus Christ, yes.
>> No. 169178
>>169173
...Aw shit, my >>169176 question got answered while I was posting it.

Ninja'd.
>> No. 169179
[x] I never asked for this but the majority sure did.
>> No. 169180
>>169172
Eeyup.
>> No. 169181
>>169162
[x] Fire your sidearm into the air.

This is always a great decision.

>Sakuya rape-baby farming
What.
>> No. 169182
...Well done, Demetrious. You have won this round, definitively. The victory is yours.
>> No. 169183
>>169167
>Says the man who wrote reverse-rape tentacle porn and Sakuya rape-baby farming.

...I thought you were talking about Kahi there.
>> No. 169184
so this is a joke update?
>> No. 169185
>>169184
Never mind, I fail at reading.
>> No. 169187
>>169167
>Sakuya Rape-baby farming

Should I really ask about this? I know about Reisen raping a tentacle monster and said monster being comforted by Yuuka
>> No. 169189
>>169187
...This is why I never went to /at/.
>> No. 169190
>>169187
The important thing to remember is that I'm not Kahi.

>>169189
It wasn't on /at/.

>>169181

>>139862
>> No. 169191
>>169190
Holy jesus this is the second worst thing I've ever read. But way too far from the first.

If you're curious, it was a surprisingly explicit update of a long-forgotten story outside of /at/ where a sex-on-the-beach dream/fantasy with one of the touhous turned into an incredibly disturbing tentacle rape of the male protagonist. It ended up 4 paragraphs later, when the monster decided it needed more holes and started to... Christ I can't go on.
>> No. 169192
>>169191
You haven't read very much, have you?
>> No. 169193
Oh god my sides, can't even finish the whole thing in one sitting.
>> No. 169197
[X] Yes. Yes, we did.

I am surprisingly okay with this.
>> No. 169198
Thank you deme. Thread has gotten way to SRSBSNESS lately.

I don't object to the story getting a little bit into the grimdrakness, it really benefits from it.

The thread has been loosing it's shit lately, however. HOPEFULLY this will calm everyone down, maybe?

Please?
>> No. 169207
Wow, I wasn't expecting this.
Remilia Escarlata , spanish noblewoman.
>> No. 169219
>>169207

No one expects the Spanish noblewoman!
>> No. 169221
Bought it until Remilia turned into a wrestler. I could even see her being Spanish.

Gotta admit, I'm not one for the joke updates, but if that's what you need to blow off some steam, then go for it.
>> No. 169223
Make it canon please. It would be hilarious and screw with EVERYONE. Also, we will never calm down and if we actually do, it will only work for around three threads. That is just how the universe works.
>> No. 169224
File 137014902324.jpg - (242.25KB , 833x1000 , LA ESCARLATA DIABLO.jpg ) [iqdb]
169224
BUENO
>> No. 169232
>>169192
A clarification, the second worst thing in THP. We usually are exempt from such... imaginative updates.
>> No. 169243
>>169232

I'm going to point you at Gensokyo Cube.
>> No. 169250
This Sakuya Rape Babies and Tentacle beach porn sound interesting. Where are they?
>> No. 169254
>>169250
>>/at/25233

The Sakuya thing wasn't porn, just a plot device.
>> No. 169256
>>169232
you're still pretty new here as there was one other troll update here and some crazy shit happens in normal updates (such as dropping a whale on someone)
>> No. 169260
So is the real update gonna happen in this thread, or a different one?
>> No. 169266
>>169260
One update per thread
>> No. 169267
>>169266
Quick! Make this thread autosage!
>> No. 169269
>>169267

Alright, then. Potential topics to natter away a thread:

[]Rodeo Clown stats.
[]Profession(mime).
[]How horrible Demetrious is for "Shakespere".
[]Whether or not this should have been a serious update.
[]Whether or not we did, indeed ask for this.
[]Lists of potential topics for discussion.
[]Write in!
>> No. 169289
>>169267
>>169269
You're assuming auto-saged threads=more updates when it's more like he takes so damn long the threads end up autosaging themselves due to how popular the story is with both native anon here and the DnD crowd.
>> No. 169296
Do note that the last CYOA that did a single update per thread was Gensokyo High.

At least this one has semi-on topic discussion without people yelling at each other over who's waifu was better.
>> No. 169300
>>169296

[Shitstorm]Nope. The only people who were yelling were the idiotic Flandrefags. Us Rumiabros were calm and assured that Rumia incest end was true end.[/shitstorm]
>> No. 169301
It started okayish and then devolved into what thankfully seems to be a joke update. I'm not happy to get a joke update, but I'm glad the update is a joke update and not a real one. If that makes sense.
>> No. 169304
>people still thinking this was a joke update
>> No. 169319
>>169304
Wizard is making real world references he has no right knowing.
>> No. 169321
>>169319
He confused mexico with Spain and then Remilia can't spell the name of her own country. He doesn't know shit.
>> No. 169330
Obviously this can't be canon, because wizanon find't immediately stop to explain that 'Frenchies' are actually the local slang for a certain kind of excessively flamboyant noble in his world, named for it's pioneer John Paul Frenchy.
>> No. 169331
>>169321

>Micheal Jackson
>> No. 169458
>Remilia in a luchador getup
>any debate at all about canonicity

Stop it.
>> No. 169488
>>169458
Yeah, it's too absurd to NOT be real.
>> No. 169498
File 13706829525.png - (99.33KB , 840x1071 , luchadorremilia.png ) [iqdb]
169498
Since this was the funniest update in a while, I drew you a thing.
>> No. 169521
I'm sure I'm the minority here, but I didn't really find this funny.

I just sorta facepalmed and didn't continue reading once Remilia went luchador.
>> No. 169541
>>169521
You're A) new to the story and B) the only one who wasn't amused.
>> No. 169542
File 137073094577.png - (46.14KB , 317x266 , c3.png ) [iqdb]
169542
>>169521
>> No. 169548
>>169331
To be honest, the Luchador getup is less of a tell than her being ten feet tall.

In Gensokyo, being taller doesn't mean you're stronger or more durable; it just means you're a bigger target.
>> No. 169551
>>169548
But we were no longer in Gensokyo at that point.
Do you know what rules Wizanon's Magical Realm applies to combat? I sure don't!
>> No. 169564
File 137075137434.png - (441.85KB , 731x632 , mordenmagemansion.png ) [iqdb]
169564
>>169551
I think we all do, actually.

A more appropriate turn of phrase might have been "For characters who live in Gensokyo and other worlds cosmically near Gensokyo...", since entering and leaving Gensokyo doesn't trigger some kind of loli effectiveness mode and the statement applies equally to characters and vehicles of and in Makai, Hell, and the Seihou world.
>> No. 169566
>>169498
Hi again, Leo.
>> No. 169757
File 137127955430.png - (654.22KB , 850x637 , sample_54cf59785d6c0c017128ea01885ef56d889f663b.png ) [iqdb]
169757
[X] Finish Remilia.

As an army of enslaved spirits advances through the flames and smoke, you feel a sudden surge of sick panic; like you've forgotten something terribly important. You chase the thought for a moment... but you've got your enemy vulnerable and only seconds to finish the job. This is the most essential art of war, how you've triumphed so many times against impossible odds – find the weak spot and push, like throwing a grindstone against an egg. It always comes down to that single chance, where success depends on going for the jugular as savagely as you can – ignoring everything else, even your own survival. You have to want victory more than life itself, and when you think of what's going on in Gensokyo, the untold numbers of innocents fed to monsters, you do.

You go for the throat. Ignoring the oncoming ghosts, the fire, the hail of danmaku piercing your iron hide, you attack with all the wrath you can muster. And a Hasted, Iron Body'd pyroclastic dragon is wrath personified. You lose track of everything, red flooding your vision as you pour out your rage in a final apocalyptic climax.

And then something hits you so hard it knocks you silly.

You were once struck in the back by an orc sling-bullet – it felt like a hammer had smashed your heart out through your sternum. A very similar pain is spreading through your body now, and your limbs feel numb. Panic surges through you – follow-up incoming, have to move, have to MOVE - but before you can rally a blue-white radiance floods over you; tangible pressure building with the brilliance.

It bursts.

A nova of blueish light blasts outward, blowing out the flames and hurling the smoke and ash away – and close behind is the first volley of blue-white missiles, punching through the ranks of tight-packed spirits with terrible impetus before detonating in blinding flashes. Before the after-images can fade another thick volley of squat ogive projectiles is hurling through the air, so densely packed they seem a single expanding ring of light. Wave after wave of missiles flies outward into the ghost hordes, the blinding detonations assailing you from all sides.

Is this what its like to watch a star explode from within it?

Before you can chase the thought, rays of moonlight spear out from above you like wagon-spokes, punching neat holes through three, four, five ranks of ghosts like they're not there. You try to look – up, at the caster, out at the enemy – but the blinding light, the pressure the power-

- you can only lie limp, still stunned, as all heaven breaks loose above you.

Then the heavens pluck you. Your all-too-familiar intimate vantage on the floor zooms out with horrible speed; you glimpse a rapidly diminishing hole ringing a smaller hole filled with a dull glowing red and a tiny, blackened figure within it, which you groggily guess to be your stomach wondering where the hell you went. Horrible howling winds tear at your clothes and deafen your ears. Bands of iron crush tight around you and blue fabric smothers your face.

About this time your limbs check in with some semblance of sensation, so you try that moving thing you'd decided on earlier. Mustering your strength, you try to flail into motion when someone hits you with the ground.

The ground. The entire damn thing. The person you're trying to kill isn't between you and it anymore; its just you and your familiar old knee-skinning face-assaulting enemy the ground, gods damn it to hell.

Its quiet and still and everything hurts, even thinking hurts. Weariness floods over you, deep and vast, darkness closing in as you sink like a stone... and bob back up, washing limply onto the shores of consciousness like a dead fish.

You open your eyes and behold the noonday suuuuucghk

SLAM your eyes shut too hard and it echoes around your skull like billiard balls of hurty ouch

ouch

AHOW.

You feel like the remains of a house fire; charred and spent. Collapsed alone in a field, no more fuel for the flames. You badly, badly want to close your eyes and sleep for a few years, but a nagging little question prods your mind, the little matter of -

“Whut thuuh fuq,” you enunciate slowly, giving the question some definition.

A gentle hand caresses your cheek and a shadow blocks out the damnable sun. You crack your eyes open to see Keine hovering over you, her eyes wild and her chest heaving (in your peripheral vision) and her pretty lips moving -

“Whu,” you interject.

“You're okay!?” she repeats, more to herself than you.

“Whut?”

“You're okay!” she cries insistently, sweat dripping off her bloodless face.

You refine your search terms. “Whut happen.

The schoolteacher has collapsed on you, her face buried in your shirt as she takes some deep, slow breaths. “We left,” she mumbles into your shirt.

That summation seems lacking. “I was a dragon,” you point out. “Now I'm – not.

Keine stirs, lifting herself on one arm to look down at you. “Dragon...” she repeats as she looks at you, the corners of her eyes tightening as her wild pupils focus steadily on you.

Then she slaps you, hard.

“What the fuck were you thinking, idiot?” she screams over the echo of the slap ringing in your ears. “Thanks for the warning before you tried to murder the fucking Scarlet Devil!

“Whaaough,” you moan as the aftershocks of Keine's blow ricochet around your already-aching skull.

“Do you have any idea what you've done? Do you have the slightest god-damned inkling!?” she screams, yanking you upright by your shirtfront and shaking you a bit.

“Yes.”

Keine's expression closes up. She lowers you down again, not gently but not rough, and shifts a quarter-turn away to hide her face.

Class dismissed.

You roll onto your side and struggle onto your hands and knees, resting a moment until you can stagger to your feet. You find yourself in a sunny field thick with gigantic sunflowers. Pushing aside the stalks, you stagger away from Keine till you're just out of her sight. Flopping on your ass, you fold one leg under you and pull your hat over your face as the adrenaline crash hits.

You know damn well what you've done – because you've done it before.

You have declared War.

Ugly and savage and brutal. War. And if you win through, justice – but not triumph. You've done it before, and you can do it again, but this time you've dragged Keine and Cirno right into...

… oh, shit.

You lurch to your feet, digging in your pocket for your scroll-case. Duke and Cirno are still in the Netherworld, in the enemies stronghold itself, and Yuyuko will know any second now what happened – if she doesn't already. You've got to warn them, rescue them if necessary, keep your group moving, keep the offensive, the initiative. You've begun the avalanche; it can only accelerate from here.

You're just finishing your Sending spell to Duke when Keine calls your name. “Cirno and Duke!” she calls. “They're-” you hush her with an upraised finger and waggle your scroll-case as Duke's reply echoes into your consciousness.

“They're already out,” you tell her with relief. “That's why I always bet on Duke. He always knows which way the winds blowing.”

“Are they coming?”

“To a big-ass sunflower field, at any rate. Is there more than one?”

“No,” Keine says. “Not this big, by far.”

“Good,” you say. “Oh, right, by the way – how the hell did we get here?”

“I carried you.”

You pinch the bridge of your nose and take a deep breath. “Lets back up to the part where I was an iron dragon swimming in lava at roughly the speed of light and go from there, okay?”

“That... was my power.”

You stare at the schoolteacher like she's just sprouted horns.

“Don't let your tongue dry out,” she snaps.

“You – you reversed me?”

She shakes her head. “Heavens, no, I'd have to be in my ex-” she stumbles, “treme! prime of my power for that. I just... concealed the history of your last few changes.”

You take a deep breath and focus on yourself – not your aches and pains and panics, but your self- and notice the spell, still potent, but dormant. Suppressed, almost.

“So you just...” you swirl your finger airily, “'concealed' a ninth-rank spell. Holy hell.”

“It wasn't easy,” she admonishes you, brushing sweat-soaked hair out of her face. “But there wasn't much time.”

Frustration, bitter and sharp, rises in your breast. “Flandre.”

“What?”

“Flandre. That's who was hammering me at the end, there – that slimy little beast.” You squeeze your hands into fists, a fresh headache building in your temples. “I knew I shouldn't have wasted time with that purple priss,” you hiss. “I liked Remilia for it all along, but no, no, I had to-” you kick the ground hard enough to send a dirt clod flying. “I could have ended it right there! FUCK!

“It wasn't Flandre,” Keine says in a low voice.

“Meiling?” you ask.

She shakes her head.

“... Sakuya?” you say, disbelieving. “Dammit, I put her out like a lamp!”

“No,” she says. Her stiff expression gives you a very, very bad feeling.

“... oh, no,” you breathe. “Oh no, there is no way I'm that unlucky. Please don't tell me it was Kan-”

“Me.”

You stare at her like she sprouted horns and a tail, completely nonplussed.

“I was screaming at you,” she says, her voice tight. “You didn't listen. The ghosts were upon you-”

“I HAD her, Keine!” you snarl. “I had the bitch an inch from death – I was this far from ending it!” you rage, peeking through your pinched fingers to make the point. “You blockheaded knuckle-dragging jackass! A few more seconds! A few more seconds and she'd be d-”

“YOU'd be dead-”

“SO WHAT!?” you scream in her face, wanting to swing at her. She jerks away from you, naked fear in her eyes.

Your tongue goes numb, sticking to the roof of your mouth, and then your lips and chest and everything follow. Something pulses behind your eyes as shock dumps through your system and prickles across your scalp. You know it too well to mistake it. The look in her eyes rolls and rolls around your mind, huge and horrible. Fear.

You never see the blow coming. You come tearing back into reality in a manner most miserable, old reliable Ground catching you. Keine's breathing is rough and ragged somewhere above as you regain your senses.

“It's not just about you, you selfish fuck,” Keine snarls with such heat that you feel a chill race down your spine.



[ ] It has to be just about you. You've started a fight to the death. It has to be your fight from now on, lest you drag others into it. You need her to understand...

[ ] Explain to her the true scope of the exploitation of humans in Gensokyo. This is about everybody no matter what you do. She can't ignore it either.

[ ] She's scared of you... and she should be. This is who you are – what you are – what you have to be if you're going to help anyone. So what the hell does she care?

[ ] Write-In?
>> No. 169759
File 137127984788.jpg - (1.24MB , 1280x1530 , d1fac51b648101f09aa7d247b389fa22d138d9e9.jpg ) [iqdb]
169759
>>169498

I made the most undignified sound when I saw that. Thank you! I'm going to get some use out of that on /jp/, I'm sure.

>>169521

Even by my decidedly low standards, some hue-tacular bullshit about luchadors and rodeo clowns isn't what I'd call the pinnacle of the writing craft, either.
>> No. 169760
[x] shut up and listen

You know what. Quiet our selves and listen. Her words are emotional and reason does not mix with emotion.
>> No. 169761
[x] shut up and listen

You know what. Quiet our selves and listen. Her words are emotional and reason does not mix with emotion.
>> No. 169763
[x] Explain to her the true scope of the exploitation of humans in Gensokyo. This is about everybody no matter what you do. She can't ignore it either.
>> No. 169764
File 137128144174.jpg - (1.06MB , 1007x1423 , meanwhile___.jpg ) [iqdb]
169764
>>169761
>>169760
>> No. 169765
[x] Explain to her the true scope of the exploitation of humans in Gensokyo. This is about everybody no matter what you do. She can't ignore it either.

We have to make her understand sooner or later. Might as well do it now before the stakes get any higher.

Also...
>always bet on Duke
Damn right!
>> No. 169768
[x] shut up and listen

We might as well listen though I doubt it'll win because it seems every choice seems to continue the wizards's obstinate tendency with the third possibly provoking a revelation of her feelings but I'm not sure on that either.
>> No. 169770
[x] shut up and listen

Best to see if we can get a glimpse of the minefield before we roll through it.
>> No. 169771
[x] shut up and listen

This actually seems like a good alternative. Everything else, Keine can shoot down or will react badly to. Let's hear what she has to say, first.
>> No. 169772
[X] Explain to her the true scope of the exploitation of humans in Gensokyo. This is about everybody no matter what you do. She can't ignore it either.
>> No. 169773
[x] shut up and listen
>> No. 169774
[x] Shut up and listen
>> No. 169776
>>169757
>You stare at the schoolteacher like she's just sprouted horns.

Tehee, oh you.

[x] Shut up and listen

Anyways, if there's one thing I learned about you from SWQ Deme, is that sometimes, one just has to listen.
>> No. 169778
[x] Shut up and listen
>> No. 169779
[x] Shut up and listen.
>> No. 169780
[X]Shut up and listen.

I like this write in. I like it a lot.

>Always bet on Duke.

I dunno man. It might take Duke forever to get out of the netherworld.
>> No. 169783
[x] Explain to her the true scope of the exploitation of humans in Gensokyo. This is about everybody no matter what you do. She can't ignore it either.
>> No. 169784
Before I get into the post at large I would like to say thank you for your story thus far, and thank you for trying to be different. I get that change is not easy and people resist and attempt to challenge their thinking no matter how backward it is. This site was founded on the back of a vile little story about attempting to fuck/befriend/fellate young girls. It has come far since then and many attempts have been made to break out of this dating sim mold. People have tried to point out that these beings are evil and spiteful, people have tried to point out that they eat humans. Nothing has worked. Your latest attempt change things up in Gensokyo may not have worked, but it was a step in the right direction. Now with that out of the way...

I had no idea Keine's power was railroading. Just dammit. Right when you had the chance to prove that you weren't like the rest of these weak spineless writers you failed. All this writing, all this buildup, all of this promise of a story that finally has the balls to change something, ANYTHING just became pointless. You set up a character as a cannibal and a murderer. There is no fucking way that a worthless dog like that deserves to be left alive.

Gensokyo is not a moral or even lawful place, there are no instant repercussions for actions taken here. The fanon has latched onto the idea that spell cards are absolutes and that the current balance of power is some sacred thing. Both are bullshit. The spell cards are a commonly followed this that exist to protect the shrine maiden and the dimension; we are neither. Nor do the rules exist to protect the youkai who are not required for the world to work.

In Canon itself youkai are described as petty, selfish creatures that care little for one another and refuse to help each other normally even when faced with death. they are arrogant foolish beings with little in the way of morality of respect. They would not care if one of their rivals was slain in the slightest as human morality does not work with them. They are not cautious or forward thinking; after all they are a group of beings that so hated change that they left reality rather then adapt.

You have in your story quite recently discussed the cost of the balance and the disgusting toll it is taking on the helpless outsiders. There is simply no way to undo what you have already written. You wrote yourself into a hole and tried to please everyone, both the spineless twits who want to bow down to these little shits, and the people who want this miserable
rat hole purged. You did not succeed.
>> No. 169785
>>169784

You mad, bro?

We had been given both ample evidence in story, as well as clarificationa by the author, what exactly Keine's stake in all of this is. Even in the immediate battle before this update we were given ways to hash out this conflict - some of which may have kept Keine away from the cmbat entirely or at least keep her too injured to intervene.

Keine is not being shone in the narration as being in the right at all. None of Wizanon's responses are even remotely agreeing with Keine, and the current winner of the vote is a write in, which Deme can not be held accountable for.


He wrote Keine true to what we've seen and been hinted of about her. She put Wizanon above Justice. The fact that this puts her in conflict with Wizanon, who puts Justice above himself, isn't a sign of anything beyond good writing technique.
>> No. 169787
File 137133627971.jpg - (79.71KB , 716x480 , derpderp.jpg ) [iqdb]
169787
>>169784
words
>> No. 169788
>>169784
Your tears are delicious
>> No. 169790
File 137133773692.jpg - (10.90KB , 250x181 , data laugh.jpg ) [iqdb]
169790
>>169784
>I had no idea Keine's power was railroading. Just dammit. Right when you had the chance to prove that you weren't like the rest of these weak spineless writers you failed. All this writing, all this buildup, all of this promise of a story that finally has the balls to change something, ANYTHING just became pointless. You set up a character as a cannibal and a murderer. There is no fucking way that a worthless dog like that deserves to be left alive.

Oh jesus christ you think this update was kissing up to the "WHAT'S WRONG WITH REMILIA SHE JUST EATS PEOPLE crowd? Hahahahaha oh jesus, no. No. No. Shit son. No. We're just not at the "climax" yet. This is the big event that kicks off the endgame of the story. If this was the big climax the fight with Remilia would have been a much closer thing and a lot more drawn-out. Her ghost army was always waiting in the wings.

I understand how I may have misled you into thinking this was The Big Finish; what with Wizard turning into an iron dragon swimming in lava at the speed of light and all. Thing is, for an 18th level wizard, that's the warm up.
>> No. 169791
Why do I get the feeling that the best theme song for Wizanon is "The Only Thing I Know For Real" or "The Hot Wind Blowing" from MGR:R? Seriously, both of those fit pretty damn well the character.

I'm eagerly waiting for Keine's tirade and Wizanon's reaction. Because no matter the choice made, Keine will MAKE Wizanon LISTEN TO HER.

I'm partial to:
[x]Sit down, shut up and listen to Kun-Lann/Somtaaw Command Keine.

followed by

[X] Explain to her the true scope of the exploitation of humans in Gensokyo. This is about everybody no matter what you do. She can't ignore it either.

One for the many is merely logical... but emotions rarely are.
>> No. 169792
>>169790
Aw yeah, we're finally nearing the endgame!

This story has gone on long enough. No need to drag it on any longer. Just make sure that the climax will be worth all the wait.

>>169784
First of all, I have the same concerns as you do and I'm glad I have someone other than me thinking that way.

Like Deme said, this is just the beginning of the shitstorm inevitably to come. The real fight starts from now on.

That being said, I'm still worried that they may still be a chance for us to "backpedal". We still haven't killed anyone after all. And you know that some anon will take that chance when it presents itself, like here when Keine's going to lecture us. I just hope our resolve stands strong.
>> No. 169794
>>169792
Backpedaling furiously.

Breaking the system only works if you can 'win' in a broken system. If you want to change the status quo, stop the predations on humans, fine - but don't do it in a way that lets every supernatural heavy gang up on you.
>> No. 169795
[X] Explain to her the true scope of the exploitation of humans in Gensokyo. This is about everybody no matter what you do. She can't ignore it either.
-[x] Also LISTEN to her WORDS. We're talking about Keine here.
>> No. 169796
>>169794
>Backpedaling furiously.

Who's backpedaling?

>but don't do it in a way that lets every supernatural heavy gang up on you

That ain't going to happen.
>> No. 169797
>>169785
>the current winner of the vote is a write in, which Deme can not be held accountable for.

And that is less "make Wizanon bow to the touhou status quo" and more "let Wizanon listen to Keine without making a save vs crazy rage or try to push her away."

At least, that's the reasoning I voted for it under.
>> No. 169798
>>169797
that's my logic as well, actually listening to Keine and possibly find out her feelings as I'm not sure those out for youkai blood are aware, but Wizanon's tendencies will get him killed at this rate.
>> No. 169799
>>169797
Fair enough. I can get behind that.

We let Keine talk first then we give her our reasoning. Sounds good? Sounds good.
>> No. 169800
>>169798
>I'm not sure those out for youkai blood are aware

I thought Deme already talked about this.
>> No. 169801
yay drama
>> No. 169802
[x] Shut up and listen.

If it was anyone else I wouldn't think this would happen, but I think our Wizard would shut up for Keine.
>> No. 169803
[X] Explain to her the true scope of the exploitation of humans in Gensokyo. This is about everybody no matter what you do. She can't ignore it either.
>> No. 169804
>>169791

I like this. Voting for:

[x] shut up and listen

And only then, once we've LISTENED...

[x] Explain to her the true scope of the exploitation of humans in Gensokyo. This is about everybody no matter what you do. She can't ignore it either.
>> No. 169806
[x] shut up and listen
Then,
[x] Explain to her the true scope of the exploitation of humans in Gensokyo. This is about everybody no matter what you do. She can't ignore it either.
>> No. 169807
Am I the only one concerned that we're currently in Yuuka's flower field?
>> No. 169808
>>169807
You mean Duke.
>> No. 169809
At times, I feel the idea of character development is lost for Anon here. Everything points to WizAnon having to decide if his black and white, Human vs Demon, view point is correct and if it still holds true in the plane he landed in, and people are getting pissed off because WizAnon is slowly changing from experience.

I'd also like to point out that Anon keeps assuming that Keine is all pro-human and okay with killing Remelia. She's half-youkai. Were-cow, remember? Being bigoted and humans first is going to push her away. She's even more scared now of revealing her demon side and trusting us.
Hell, our actions are burning away the bridges with our strongest, native ally if you don't give two shits about the developing romance.

Last not, you faggots were willing to throw away the ultimate spell for boning Keine. You almost cockblocked yourself to kill Remelia.
>> No. 169810
>Being bigoted and humans first is going to push her away.

Dunno about you, but last time I checked, punishing a murderer doesn't count as a "bigoted" act.
>> No. 169812
>>169809
It's not about protecting the humans - it's about protecting the weak and innocent, those that never had a chance. The humans here are those people.
>> No. 169814
I fucking told you guys that the fucking vamp would not die, only minor youkai ever does unless the whole story is about killing someone higher, but atleast the story progresses.
>> No. 169815
[x] Shut up and listen
I don't think any other option makes sense, simply because the chapter closed with two quick shocks (one physical other emotional) returning some sense into Wiz.
Also because rule of drama declares it's Keine's turn to talk.
>> No. 169816
>>169810
>Dunno about you, but last time I checked, punishing a murderer doesn't count as a "bigoted" act.

How about one group condemning an entire other group simply because they don't follow the first group's particular set of morals?

Like >>169784
>they are arrogant foolish beings with little in the way of morality of respect.
>They would not care if one of their rivals was slain in the slightest as human morality does not work with them.

Note the key word there: human morality.

Why would a supernatural being whose life spans hundreds or even thousands of years follow the same moral code as something that lives for barely a fraction of that time, especially when it also happens to be the primary food source for that being? Why would a youkai have any reason to care for their fellow youkai when, as is likely the case for the ones that are basically ascended animals, they were only able to survive as long as they had because they weren't looking out for anyone but themselves up to that point?

I'm not saying they're right, but to say a group is outright wrong just because they don't act or think the same way you do, without making any attempt to understand why they don't think or act that way? Isn't that basically what bigotry is?

Understanding someone doesn't mean you have to like or agree with them, after all.
>> No. 169818
>>169816
Not the guy you're quoting here, but I'll try to answer anyway.

So, you're not saying they're right, but you refuse to think of them as wrong either. Pray tell, what are we supposed to do then? To try to stop them implies we think what they're doing is wrong, while the reverse implies we think what they're doing is right.

I already understand where the youkai are coming from (thanks to you guys) but like you said yourself, understanding someone doesn't mean you have to like or agree with them. Well, I don't like them and I don't agree with them.

Oh, and we hunting down man-eating youkai can be justified from the youkai's morality, you know. Survival of the fittest. The strong devours the weak. And so, we shall be the strong one that shall "devour" the weak, man-eating youkai.
>> No. 169820
[ ] Explain to her the true scope of the exploitation of humans in Gensokyo. This is about everybody no matter what you do. She can't ignore it either.

"You're damn right Keine, this ISN'T just about me. This is about every innocent man, woman and child who's been dragged across the border by Yukari, or stolen from the human village, or had their fucking corpse taken from a wild animal, so they could be locked in a cellar for Remilia to drain dry and grind their bodies into Flandre's fucking bread! There is a pile of bodies so high it'd reach the top of Youkai mountain, and nobody gives a single DAMN about them, because they're 'just humans.'

I have lived my entire life, every moment of it, righting injustices like that. I look at Remilia and I can just see every person she's murdered, every drop of blood staining her hands. And on top of it all, I see the fucking LIES surrounding this place, keeping it secret so that a handful of people don't get upset!"

Gonna stop before I put out a rant as long as Demetrious' posts.
>> No. 169821
>>169820
You might as well. We got another month before updates anyways. Also, gotta autosage the thread. Can't have more than one story post per thread now can we?
>> No. 169822
>>169816
I suppose the Youkai has very little reason to care for a human's viewpoint. Or life.

But the human has a very good reason to care about his viewpoint, and life. So when the human stands up to fight back against the Youkai instead of laying down and letting it eat him, you can't call that bigotry.

If you're gonna push Natural Selection, then you have to accept that sometimes, the prey can kill the predator.
>> No. 169823
[x] shut up and listen

Seems to be the thing to do.
>> No. 169824
File 137144229030.jpg - (195.51KB , 1600x1200 , 1369878287847.jpg ) [iqdb]
169824
>>169821
>> No. 169825
>be big hero wizard
>driven by justice to destroy the evil monster feasting on the innocent
>righteous rage
>your love interest throws you an angry face
>crumble like paper and listen to whatever she says

Really guys? Wizanon is a person of conviction and goodness. He shouldn't be shutting up to listen every time a woman gets mad at him for risking his life.
>> No. 169826
>>169825
you might be misreading his character as sure goodness is generally done, but there's the imperssion he does so as he knows no other life as he has no one to care for and no one to care for him.... until now.
>> No. 169827
>>169825
Who said he's giving in? This is just respecting Keine enough to let her have her say.
>> No. 169828
>>169824

Don't take a month to write an update then if you want threads to last longer.
>> No. 169832
>>169824
>Byakuren-gangbanged-by-invisible-men.jpg
>> No. 169834
>>169827

Respect? For a NPC? Ha! You make funny joke my friend.

You know what it's called when another character talks you into abandoning your ideals and going along with whatever they say? It's called a Charisma check, and you guys are about to fail it. Hard.

Wizanaon has probably killed hundreds of evildoers in the name of whatever twisted ideals he holds dear. Keine is one thousand years too early to be telling us how to live our life.
>> No. 169835
>>169834
>Dismissing main love interest as a mere NPC.

Please go back to /tg/ or whatever dank neckbeard den you came from. It's very clear you have no idea about what kind of story this is.
>> No. 169836
>>169834
>It's called a Charisma check, and you guys are about to fail it. Hard.

I don't think this story works that way.
>> No. 169839
>>169834

If I was your GM I would expel you from my house with much vituperation and insistence of immolation. You should seriously consider whether you are "THAT GUY".

Unfortunately, I am not your GM, it is difficult to expel one from an anonymous imageboard. Something else important that you appear to fail to realize is that Demetrious is also not your GM, because this is not a game, but a story, and he is its author. Votes constitute reader input, not mandated PC actions. Stories do not have player characters with privilege and non-player characters without it - they only have characters, written and controlled by the author unilaterally. Wizard is a viewpoint character - we see things from his point of view, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is in the right, or even close to it, in any given argument.

For story characters - and for good roleplay characters - there is something called "character development", which is where a character changes over time. It is not the result of a botched die roll. It can occur when a character's ideals come into conflict with one another, or with things the character loves, as in this scenario, and in many other cases as well. It is a wonderful thing when pulled off well.

You think Keine lacks the experience to tell Wizard what for? Keine has fought monsters whose powers are comparable to those of ones Wizard often fights for a time at least as long as Wizard has been fighting, and quite probably longer, and this is her home turf. Furthermore, every full moon, she sees everything that has ever happened, and things that are yet to come as well. I would say that it is the intruder, Wizard, who lacks the experience to tell Keine what for.
>> No. 169841
>>169839
>Keine has fought monsters whose powers are comparable to those of ones Wizard often fights for a time at least as long as Wizard has been fighting, and quite probably longer, and this is her home turf

Yeah right. With non-lethal spellcard battles. Nothing comparable to what the Wizard's been doing.

>Furthermore, every full moon, she sees everything that has ever happened, and things that are yet to come as well.

Sauce? Or is this just yet another Touhou wankery?

By the way, I'm not the guy you're quoting.
>> No. 169843
>>169841
>Sauce? Or is this just yet another Touhou wankery?

Well, her official profile does say:
>As a hakutaku, she possesses all knowledge about Gensokyo, and possess the ability to create history.

And, in her Perfect Memento article:
>A hakutaku is a youkai which appears to virtuous rulers at the beginning of their reign, warning them of future calamities and guiding them on the path of righteousness.

From what little I can find, this doesn't seem to be too far off from the actual hakutaku folklore, which says it "knew everything there was to know about every single thing in all of creation."

So, yeah. EX-Keine can probably see the future.
>> No. 169844
>>169843
Rather than "knowing everything there was to know about every single thing in all of creation", that sounds more like a seer and an advisor of sorts.

And the part about "she possesses all knowledge about Gensokyo" worries me, since it implies she already knew about the whole "youkai eating people" thing and yet she did nothing about it. And if the Wizard knows this, well... you can probably guess what will happen.
>> No. 169846
>>169844
I have to agree with you, her power (at least in this story) is nothing like that. She only sees what she looks for, otherwise she'd have known about the wizard's arrival and all that.

Also, please ignore THAT GUY.
>> No. 169847
>And the part about "she possesses all knowledge about Gensokyo" worries me, since it implies she already knew about the whole "youkai eating people" thing and yet she did nothing about it. And if the Wizard knows this, well... you can probably guess what will happen.

Already covered. She can access all information in Gensokyo during the full moon - but only if she knows to look for it. And it states in her own profile that Akyuu's history is "above" hers; not subject to her manipulation.

>“You're lying,” Keine says, her voice uneven and brittle, arms trembling at her sides. “I've read the Chronicle. I know!”

>Sakuya turns her miserable eyes on the schoolteacher. “Akyuu left that detail out, did she? In your copy, at least.”
>> No. 169849
>>169847
Huh, for one second, I thought you were quoting from some canon source. Turns out it was from this story.

Welp, must've forgotten it, I suppose. Can't be helped considering this story's update rate sorry Deme
>> No. 169850
[x] Shut up and listen.
And then...
[x] Explain to her the true scope of the exploitation of humans in Gensokyo. This is about everybody no matter what you do. She can't ignore it either.
>> No. 169857
You know, it's satisfying to beat the fuck out of Remilia, but now she's going to be ready for us to pull off that kind of attack again. We're going to need a radically different strategy when we go for round two.

I recommend calling in some "fuck you" tier assistance. A Solar or Planetar seems appropriate.

I was also about to suggest Meteor, but Flandre canonically destroys a meteor. Fuck.
>> No. 169862
>>169841
>Yeah right. With non-lethal spellcard battles. Nothing comparable to what the Wizard's been doing.
Except that the spellcard system was only implemented by Reimu a few years ago. Keine's several years older than Reimu even if she's as young as she looks; and there is a non-ignorable possibility that she is significantly older than she looks, since she manipulates history.

That, and Keine isn't from a universe where the rules are grossly imbalanced in favor of people of her profession. Wizard is. At least he hasn't started pulling out Ice Assassins yet.
>> No. 169864
>>169862
>Except that the spellcard system was only implemented by Reimu a few years ago.

When exactly?
>> No. 169867
>>169864
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Reimu_Hakurei

Scroll down to "The Vampire Incident."

It states that the arrival of a powerful vampire (later stated to be Remilia) from outside, and its swift enslavement of many Gensokyo-ans, caused a force of united Youkai to attack and defeat it. Reimu then set down the Spellcard rules because the Youkai pleaded that sometimes, violence was the only answer, and she agreed.

So the spellcard rules were created shortly after Remilia arrived and was beaten.

Makes sense that she'd still be pissed off about it, and that she needs to raise a massive force to oppose the Youkai again. She's making a power play to gain control over Gensokyo entirely.

Man, we could take this to Reimu or Yukari or even Kanako, but they'd only force her to stop summoning and practicing necromancy, not stop killing people.
>> No. 169869
>>169864
According to the story, we have no idea. According to canon, it occurred between Embodiment of the Scarlet Devil and Mystic Square.

On any hand, Keine has been the village's protector for a long time, and as far as I can tell, if she wasn't there, there would be nothing between Gensokyo's indigenous youkai and the Human Village, and there's nothing to assume that the youkai wouldn't attack the village. (I'm drawing this from Imperishable Night, stage 3). Considering the fact that she managed to successfully protect the Human Village from any daring Youkai long before the Spell Card Rules were implemented, I'd say that she definitely is stronger than most Youkai. Additionally, since her EX form is powerful enough to pair up with Mokou, who was canonically strong enough to kill at least 20 assassins hand-picked by a faction in Gensokyo that might have the resources and firepower to level the entire region to dust before Reimu encountered her, I believe that Keine can definately stand her own against Wizard.
>> No. 169870
>>169869
>who was canonically strong enough to kill at least 20 assassins hand-picked by a faction in Gensokyo that might have the resources and firepower to level the entire region to dust before Reimu encountered her

Whoa, this is the first time I've heard of this.

And the bolded part, hyperbole much?
>> No. 169871
>>169869
>Additionally, since her EX form is powerful enough to pair up with Mokou

By that logic, Kogasa is as strong as Nue.
>> No. 169872
>>169867
>Yukari
Tiny little problem of Yuyuko's involvement there.
We could go to Kanako, though. I doubt she'd appreciate Remilia building a zombie ghost army.
>> No. 169873
Forget a slippery slope; you're charging down that thing full-speed now.
>> No. 169876
>>169870

Well, said faction is a group of voluntary exiles from the Moon, home to a civilization of mythological humans (Lunarians) who fled to it with their god.

The Lunarians themselves are an arrogant race of humans who fled the earth to escape the 'impurity' rampant in our world, and proceeded to make a civilization far more advanced than even our own.

Among their accomplishments within canon are -
Developing shotguns, grenade launchers, and guns with controllable bullet paths a few thousand years ago,
Having the founder of their civilization (the de facto leader of the exile faction I mentioned previously), create an elixir that makes the drinker's soul exist independently of reality and become invincible (This is why Mokou is immortal)
Developing miniaturized weapons of mass destruction in the form of fans that breaks down all forms of matter into their basic atomic structure (A gamebreaker that not even the most clever and powerful Youkai could overcome)
And most interestingly and noteworthy of all-
Creating the Youkai.

Now, I feel that Wizard is completely justified in fighting against the blatant injustice in Gensokyo, but I also sympathize with my fellow Touhou fans who are repelled by what they see as a general Humans, Fuck Yeah! attitude among their fellow anons.

The way I see it, humans were originally meant by the Lunarians to be hunted by Youkai, which means it's justified for the humans to strike back. I won't mind if the story goes into a crusade against the status quo in Gensokyo that leads to the deaths of countless innocent Youkai and humans, with Wizardanon himself dying at the end, but I would like to point out that all of this was caused by the Lunarians in order to cause strife among the humans.

tl;dr conclusion: The Lunarians are a group of OP extraterrestrials who created the youkai to set them against the humans. If you want somebody to blame for making this unjust state, here's your scapegoat.
>> No. 169878
>>169876
That's the first time I heard that Lunarians made the Youkai. I thought the Youkai were forces of nature and thought that arose from humanity naturally. Got a source on that?

And if its true, then the Lunarians are serious assholes, but the fact that its ultimately all their fault doesn't change the fact that right now Remilia is devouring innocent people.
>> No. 169879
>>169876
>but I also sympathize with my fellow Touhou fans who are repelled by what they see as a general Humans, Fuck Yeah! attitude among their fellow anons.

Heh, funny you should bring up the Lunarians and this at the same time.

You know, if this story took place in the Lunar Capital instead, with Wizanon trying to fix the injustices in their society, I'm 100% there wouldn't be as many complaints as it is now, if there's any at all. No one would be repelled by the so-called "Humans, Fuck Yeah!" attitude because, hey, who gives a fuck about dem snobby space!Elves after all? And if the story takes place in the war between humans and Lunarians, I'll bet my hat that everyone will want to flock to the humans' side.

I've read stories where the humans go to war with the Lunarians. And it's always the Lunarians who are the bad guys. While on the other hand, if the enemy is the youkai, the humans get the bad guy role instead.

In the end, it's all about favoritism. Everyone loves Gensokyo so of course they don't want some shmuck to "challenge" it like this.

Oh, and the funny thing about that "elf" remark? It can also apply to youkai. I just read a fic (recently recommended in the rec thread) where the main character goes on and on and on about how the youkai are totally and utterly superior over humanity. And no, it's not rebuked at all.

Oh, and there's another fic where a human wants to be eaten by a youkai since she'll be glad she can be a nourishment to such "beautiful" creatures.

If that doesn't scream "elf", then I don't know what else does.

>>169878
I agree. If they're really the ones creating the youkai, then they're just as bad, if not worse than those man-eating youkai. They would belong in "Lawful Evil" alignment, I suppose.

After we finish our business here in Gensokyo, perhaps we pay a visit to them. If there's any chance that we can "turn off" the continuing creation of the man-eating youkai, then we should do so.

But first, we should take care of the man-eating youkai in Gensokyo. Unless by "turning off" whatever magic the Lunarians are using to create them, they'd also disappear, which in that case, we should just go to the moon straight ahead. It'll be more efficient that way.
>> No. 169880
>>169878
Here's a source. http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Moon
>In the distant past the people of the moon tried regulating people of the Earth by creating monsters, according to Kaguya in Imperishable Night.

So yeah, as you concluded, they're basically assholes.

Anyways, we'll just have to see how we can impact Gensokyo's status quo from here on out. It will not please everyone, but the slaughter of innocent humans is something that Wizardanon is not going to tolerate.
>> No. 169881
[x] shut up and listen
Fine. We learned that Remilia has been eating people, then having them diced up into cakes for her sister to eat, then enslaving them into an army of the damned after their deaths. Keine cares about humans. Why isn't she as murderous as we are? What does she think she knows that we do not know?

Also, that Keine is afraid of us is pretty hilarious, considering she just redacted like 4 of our best spells and punched us out. Ah well, emotions and logic only have a passing familiarity with each other.
>> No. 169883
>>169880
Incident talk is hard to take seriously as it's basically glorified smack talk.

That and even if the notion of youkai was made by Lunarians, they're not something they control directly.... which is in contrast to certain gods (Kanako) who basically did their dirty work.
>> No. 169895
>>169880
>Lunarians made monsters in the distant past

That is so incredibly vague. It could mean they created the Youkai, it could mean they created a handful of living monsters to cull the herd, it could mean they bred an army built for the destruction of man.

At any rate, Youkai seem to be born and die independently of Lunarian manipulation, so if they were responsible for the first, they're not in control anymore.
>> No. 169896
>>169880
>wikia
no god please
>> No. 169908
>>169895

You're somewhat correct in that analysis. However, since the backstory behind the distant past of Gensokyo is incredibly vague, there are a concrete few things that we know:

1. They had a role in creating the Youkai. Kaguya has her pride as a Lunarian princess, and I've never had the impression that she would lie about her race's accomplishments.
2. Yukari admitted that the Youkai originated from the Moon, although she never stated whether they came to be from the Lunarian's actions or from their own accord.

These are not mutually independent facts. From here, it's the creator's freedom to interpret these facts into whatever he pleases, if he decides not to overlook them entirely and forge his own world. And in the end, we still won't know what Demetrious will do regarding this piece of canon.

In either case, all of this probably won't be relevant to the story. I can hardly envision Wizardanon going to the Moon on a crusade to beat down the Lunarians, since he would need an comprehensive understanding of the barrier shielding it from interlopers or help from the Lunarians in Gensokyo to even get there, let alone a means to deal with the beings who incapacitated Reimu and Marisa almost instantly and defeated Sakuya and Remilia at their own game (Spell Cards) in a consecutive series of battles.

>>169896
I was merely addressing another Anon's question as to where I pulled an obscure point of Touhou canon from. Indeed, the same source I pulled my quote from draws entirely from Imperishable Night, which is where Keine and Mokou originated; unless you're saying that we should not consider the content of the material that Demetrious is clearly drawing from, I'd say that what I'm contributing to this thread is far more informational and interesting than your post telling me 'no god please'.
>> No. 169911
>>169908
No dude, my problem is with Wikia itself. It is simply awful.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Moon
There that's much better don't you agree?
>> No. 169913
>>169911

Well, now that I see what you meant, I apologize for questioning your response. I've never really seen the difference between the two wikis, but thanks for showing me how the 'other' wiki is superior than the one I posted.
>> No. 169917
>>169881
I believe Keine is scared because Wizard is completely outside her scope of reference. Gensokyo was created for youkai with humans being taken in because they were needed (for food and because youkai need to be feared). List of humans that actually count is extremely limited compared to youkai ant even these don't just kill youkai. Ant than Wizard appears. He isn't scared like normal outsiders, he is powerful enough to fight youkai and win and, most important, he does not play by rules that everyone else takes for granted. If he would actually kill Remilia that would be something more than just a random kill of human by youkai. That would be normal. But human killing youkai. That goes against the very nature of Keine's world. She lived in Gensokyo all her life and despite everything she knows about it Wizard is something new. The very concept of human killing youkai could actually be more destructive for Gensokyo than anything Wizard could actually do to Remi. In most extreme case it could even make humans stop fearing youkai. How that would end?
>> No. 169918
>>169917
And not the obvious reason that she's afraid of the guy she fell in love with tossing his life away so friviously?
>> No. 169921
>reading the moon wiki
>"invasion" was the moon landing
>attempted colony was "a serious threat."

Exactly how powerful are these Lunarians, to view scientific endeavors as serious threats? I mean, given the general bullshittery of Touhous, you'd think a rocket wouldn't do much of anything.
>> No. 169924
[X] Explain to her the true scope of the exploitation of humans in Gensokyo. This is about everybody no matter what you do. She can't ignore it either.
-[x] Also LISTEN to her WORDS. We're talking about Keine here.
>> No. 169929
>>169921
Neil Armstrong was the first space marine.
Justifiable panic ensued.
>> No. 169930
>>169921
Neil Armstrong was the first space marine.
Justifiable panic ensued.
>> No. 169932
>>169921
The reason the Lunarians consider such things to be a threat isn't because of what they're doing, but because of where they're from, and what they're carrying with them as a result.

As someone else mentioned, the Lunarians originally left the Earth to escape the impurities that tainted it. The way I understand it, these impurities are basically what causes things on Earth to age, decay, and/or die, so by moving to the moon and creating a society free of those impurities, they basically became kinda-sorta-quasi-immortal, and will remain that way so long as they remain "pure".

Think of them like a native tribe that has lived in almost total isolation for thousands of years, the astronauts are the European explorers, and the impurities they're carrying are their smallpox.
>> No. 169933
>>169918
That's so obvious I didn't believe I need to point this. But, am least for me, she seems scared both, OF him and ABOUT him.
>> No. 169934
>>169918
That's so obvious I didn't believe I need to point this. But, am least for me, she seems scared both, OF him and ABOUT him.
>> No. 169938
>>169934
>>169933
>>169917
In general, it's considered polite to sage your posts in story threads unless you are either voting, or you're the author and you're posting a story update.

Anyway, humans killing youkai, even powerful youkai, is nothing new, particularly with regards to the outside world. Why did you think they are confined to and able to survive in such a relatively small reserve?
>> No. 169945
>>169938
I understand that, but it's kinda hard to balance the things that the Youkai are supposedly capable of, with the fact that mundane (if heroic) humans drove them back.

I mean, what the hell can humans do to harm a being like Yukari or Yuuka? How do you overpower Suika? And IIRC somebody did some math and proved Youmu could swing her sword faster than the speed of sound.
>> No. 169954
>>169921
They're just overreacting.

>>169932
And that's also why Yorihime was so scared of Reimu's calamity god. If any of its impurity went through, it could very well mean the end of the Lunarians.

You sure Reimu and co. were the good guys here?

>>169945
>And IIRC somebody did some math and proved Youmu could swing her sword faster than the speed of sound.

Ah yes, taking the name of a spellcard in face value.

God, I hate that doujin for popularizing this bullshit.
>> No. 169956
>>169945
From the myths angle, the oni Shuten-doji, whom Suika was based upon, was slain by putting him to sleep with divinely poisoned sake, and then cutting off his head and then burying it after it stopped moving.

As for the others, well, most often it isn't "mundane" humans who fight youkai, but heroes of some sort. Heroes are often capable of feats on par with monsters, such as Youmu's sword-swinging. (Youmu is not pure human, but many mythical human heroes had less human blood than she does.) Using items or divine power, like Reimu or Marisa do, also counts.

On a larger scale, it was accomplished by technological and cultural advancement leading to failing belief in the terrors of the night, and therefore, to the deterioration of those terrors.
>> No. 169985
>>169945
Same way Reimu et al do: by finding powers of their own.

And the rest fall en masse; remember that as faith/fear declines, all youkai everywhere weaken. I imagine they got complacent for awhile, and then the Enlightenment hit and suddenly you have a society that's more likely to believe in hoaxes than in demons.
>> No. 169990
>>169985
>army of Youkai raping and pillaging the land
>shogun instructs his people to plug their ears and pretend nothing is happening
>it works
>thousands of angry samurai throw down their swords in protest
>> No. 170005
>>169990
Actually, the Youkai of Japan apparantly resided in Gensokyo, and occasionally ventured out and caused havoc among the surrounding lands. After a group of badass sages and warriors came in and established a permanent settlement in Gensokyo to 'pacify' the Youkai, it can be assumed that the Youkai's influence significantly declined as generations came and went without being terrorized by the supernatural.

As a random bit of trivia, those descendants of the ancient heroes... are the people in the Human Village.
>> No. 170009
>>170005
Those people probably would feel disappointed to see how toothless the humans in Gensokyo had become, plainly tolerating man-eating youkai like that.
>> No. 170027
Aaand we're done with Keine. Instead of helping us beat the evil vampire she sneak attacked us. Fuck her.
>> No. 170028
>>170027
Deme, you attract the best readers, you know that?
>>169945
Spell cards aren't literal. If Youmu were able to cross 200 Yojana in a second, that'd be a fraction of the speed of light.
>> No. 170029
File 137165723290.jpg - (42.51KB , 336x250 , 1340907035774.jpg ) [iqdb]
170029
>>170027
agreed, humans stronk
>> No. 170034
>>169825
/Thank you!/
>> No. 170036
>>170028
Any speed is a fraction of the speed of light, silly.
>> No. 170037
>>170009
Well, I wouldn't call them toothless.

Remember that Ranger guy?
>> No. 170041
>>170028

I believe you can only turn things that you can actually do normally into spellcards. So yeah, the human sages and Monster hunters of that time were incredible Monsters of inhuman Levels. I mean, even without spellcards, Suika can manipulate the density of EVERYTHING. Hell, it is mentioned in Canon that the reason the spell Card System was invented was so the Yokai would have a Chance to win against Reimu, not the other way around. Otherwise, whenever a human gets eaten, she would go out and destroy a bunch of nonhumans.
>> No. 170044
>>170041
Which begs the question of just how powerful these Youkai are, if Reimu can beat them all up. She's stated to be horrendously powerful, but all we really see is her flying around, knocking some yin-yang orbs (outside of danmaku, that is).

I personally think the whole series suffers from Power Level Syndrome, where each character has this incredible description to make them seem like a major player, but really what happens is that the setting becomes totally implausible.
>> No. 170048
>>170027
>>170029
>>170034
>>170037
On this site, in general, it's considered polite to sage your posts in story threads unless you are either voting, or you're the author and you're posting a story update.

Also, you might want to try looking at things from Keine's point of view. Which is more or less what the write-in vote is about doing. Wizard is strong and the main character, but he's also arrogant, and he doesn't have the same luxury of protagonist-centered morality that many (badly written) main characters and RP player characters do.
>> No. 170051
>>170044

Not really implausible, but due to the lack of defined limits is really easy to get carried away with the possibilities.

But it's not like there are no feats at all since I remember Remilia circumnavigating the moon in a short period of time and also Flandre intercepting and destroying a meteorite both of which would require Massively Hypersonic speeds to do so. Suika shattering the moon, Tenshi raising the ground into space (also needs massively hypersonic speeds), Utsuho's powers period, etc.

So it's not like we have no idea about what exactly they could do. Although this honestly only really applies to the youkai whose abilities aren't just inherently broken anyway.
>> No. 170052
>>170009
>Those people probably would feel disappointed to see how toothless the humans in Gensokyo had become, plainly tolerating man-eating youkai like that.

Except, most of those "man-eating" youkai have, themselves, softened considerably to the point that even Reimu admits in WaHH that Gensokyo's youkai aren't youkai in the traditional sense anymore, and generally behave more like very eccentric people rather than beings whose sole purpose is to attack and strike fear in the hearts of humans. In Perfect Memento, Akyuu explicitly states that youkai almost never eat humans anymore, and much of what they do now are things like mock battles and mock kidnappings for the sake of appearances, rather than making serious attempts to harm anyone.

So, it's not exactly fair to call the humans toothless for "tolerating man-eating youkai like that" because there aren't that many man-eating youkai left to tolerate. If anything, you could spin the current state of Gensokyo as a victory for the humans, who now live in a state of relative peace where their long-time enemies/predators are no longer trying to kill and eat them.

Of course, I like to think the ancient youkai-hunters would still be disappointed by all this, and would wonder how both sides could have allowed themselves to become such raging pussies who would rather play games and drink tea with each other rather than engage in glorious battle to the death.
>> No. 170056
>>170051
How many times has the moon been destroyed now?

The touhou storyline is a joke, with each new addition being more ridiculous than the next.
>> No. 170057
>>170056
>The touhou storyline is a joke, with each new addition being more ridiculous than the next.

Only if you make the mistake of taking it all seriously and literally. You're talking about characters you would typically find in mythology and folklore doing the sorts of things you would hear about in mythology and folklore in a setting that runs almost entirely by the rules and logic of mythology and folklore.
>> No. 170061
>>170056

According to the Lunarians who should've been imploded by Suika if that actually happened, that was just an 'artificial' version of the moon. The real one is hidden behind a powerful barrier that is virtually impossible for even somebody like Suika to breach.
>> No. 170062
>>170061
I've always thought Suika was just destroying the "illusion" of the moon myself. Or the image.

>>170057
Well, you gotta take it more "seriously" if you're going to make a crossover like this.

>>170056
>The touhou storyline is a joke, with each new addition being more ridiculous than the next.

Yeah, that's what I don't like about Touhou.

>>170052
In context of this story.

>>170044
>I personally think the whole series suffers from Power Level Syndrome, where each character has this incredible description to make them seem like a major player, but really what happens is that the setting becomes totally implausible.

Yeah, I feel we can just "nerf" or put a limit to those totally ridiculous power and nothing would be really lost as a result.
>> No. 170069
>>170057
>the touhou series isn't a joke if you consider it a joke

What?
>> No. 170073
>>170062
I think she was messing with the concept or such than the actual moon, so it's hard to tell if the Lunarians actually noticed much of anything.
>> No. 170091
>>170062
>Well, you gotta take it more "seriously" if you're going to make a crossover like this.

If we were talking about crossovers in general, I'd be inclined to agree with you, depending on the nature of whatever was being crossed-over. In this particular crossover, though? The one that brought in a protagonist capable of transforming into, as he put it, "an iron dragon swimming in lava at roughly the speed of light"? The one with the big fight with a killer gazebo?

I'm sorry, but anything that allows a character to utter the words "I was an iron dragon swimming in lava at roughly the speed of light" that isn't either a metaphor or a recount of the time they experimented with hallucinogenic substances is not something that makes me look at Touhou and think "that stuff is too silly, it should be less silly".

Granted, it's possible that my interpretation of "you gotta take it more seriously" isn't what you intended it to mean, but I'm not really inclined to take much of anything Touhou-related all that seriously to begin with, regardless of what it's being attached to, and I kinda like it that way.
>> No. 170113
>>169876
>with Wizardanon himself dying at the end

Fuck you man. He's a wizard, cheating death 8th-level arcane spell.
>> No. 170116
>>170113
An eighth-level spell which takes a one-inch lump of the subject's flesh, 1500 GP worth of lab materials, and about 5 months of preparation in advance, and which doesn't work if the creature's soul is destroyed or trapped. Trap the soul and soul bind may be 8th- and 9th-level spells in D&D, but in Touhou, sealing souls (specifically, a certain revengeful ghost's soul) is something Reimu has been doing since the second game or so, and is probably well within the capabilities of the Lunarians.

That is, if something like Toyohime's fan doesn't destroy it outright, or render it entirely unlike Wizard, by purifying it.
>> No. 170143
>>170044
Yeah, in Canon all Touhous are ludicrously powerful, but also, Reimu is a game breaker. It isn't because of offensive power (though that is still quite high) but because of her natural ability. She is Kind of, instinctively englightened and thus can remain invicible if she wants to. This is actually a part of her natural ability to float. It allows her to "Phase out of existence and back whenever she wants to." It is described as a way of being I believe and thus she could use it all the time if she wanted. Thus, becoming invicible against everything. In fact, the ability was considered too strong for a spell Card until Marisa gave it a time Limit and Name. So yeah, Reimu could walk through Gensokyo, kill all the Yokai and they would be unable to harm her, even when she sleeps, baths or does something similar.
>> No. 170147
>>170091
What I meant by "taking it seriously" is the talk of the powerlevels. You either take the stuff about Reimu being invincible (>>170143) or not. If you take it, you're at risk of taking away the significance of the series Touhou crossed over to. But if you don't, you're at risk of pissing of some Touhou fans for weakening their beloved characters.
>> No. 170151
>>170147
>If you take it, you're at risk of taking away the significance of the series Touhou crossed over to. But if you don't, you're at risk of pissing of some Touhou fans for weakening their beloved characters.

I would assume, though you don't make a point of stating it, that you just as easily run the risk of pissing off the fans of the non-Touhou side of the crossover as a result of "taking away the significance" of that series. Either way, I have to question why you think it has to be such a binary, "take it or leave it" proposition.

Unless the goal of the crossover is to depict one side as superior to the other and have Character From Series X thoroughly curb-stomp everyone from Series Y, I would assume both aspects of the crossover require at least some tinkering to reconcile their differences and make it easier to mesh them together. If you have to take away too much from one or the other, then what's the point of even bringing them together at all?

Of course, this raises the question of how much to take from each side, and how you prioritize what should or shouldn't be kept in terms of what each series brings to the table. Personally, I think that depends on the nature of the crossover itself. For example, if I were to put Batman into the Touhou universe, I probably wouldn't put the same limitations on what the Touhou cast is capable of as I would if I were placing Touhou into the Batman universe. In the former, I wouldn't give Bruce the ability to fly just because everyone else can, but I wouldn't take away flight from anyone else just because he can't, either. In the latter case, though? I absolutely would take away flight from characters who normally could, simply because it works better for the setting. There's not much point in having the Batmobile or grappling hooks if everyone can fly around like Superman, after all.
>> No. 170164
>>170151
Thank you for articulating my point better.
>> No. 170172
[X] Explain to her the true scope of the exploitation of humans in Gensokyo. This is about everybody no matter what you do. She can't ignore it either.
-[x] Also LISTEN to her WORDS. We're talking about Keine here.
>> No. 170173
[X] Steal the entire gods-damned human village and its people, and bring it all back with you to the Realms.
>> No. 170176
>>170173
thats stupid, it still dosen't solve the problem of humans being snatched from the outside
>> No. 170179
>>170176
[X] Steal the entire gods-damned OUTSIDE WORLD and its people, and bring it all back with you to the Realms, along with the Human Village.
THERE
PROBLEM FUCKING SOLVED
>> No. 170187
>>170179

Sure, kidnap all 7 billion people on Earth and bring them to a entirely new dimension, and expect them all to not only survive the transit, but also thrive in a foreign environment that may or may not have the appropriate logistics to support that many people, and coexist with any locals who have no prior warning that billions of people would suddenly appear out of nowhere.

Although Wizardanon is willing to sacrifice quite a bit for justice in Gensokyo, I don't think he's insane enough to do that.
>> No. 170188
>>170187
Why are you taking a joke answer seriously?
>> No. 170197
>>170187
*Create Food and Water Traps
*Appropriate cure disease spell traps
Fabricate traps for furniture
*Wall of Stone for houses
*Time Dilated plane to make it all in a reasonable timeframe, possibly via minions(simulcrams etc).
*Permanent teleportation circles to a single interplanar Portal to transport people.

BAM
>> No. 170199
>>170187
What part of 'entire (...) WORLD' do you not understand?
>> No. 170200
>>170199
Now that may be more difficult. At best you could maybe transport the world in chunks, unless your willing to boost your cl through exploits.
>> No. 170203
>>170200
>exploits
>wizard
Um.
>> No. 170206
>>170203
Infinite loops son.
>> No. 170208
>>170206
I was implying that anybody who would play a wizard would not hesitate to use exploits because playing a wizard is basically using an exploit in and of itself.
>> No. 170209
You know, it might be easier to get rid of Gensokyo rather than move the entire world.

Wizard already believes that it's attached to the Great Wheel, just in an odd fashion. Evac the humans, then bust open a Gate to the Abyss and let infinite demons handle the rest.

Or planeshift it into the Negative Material/Energy plane. That'll learn 'em.
>> No. 170212
>>170209
>bust open a Gate to the Abyss and let infinite demons handle the rest.

And we'll get our demon invasion story.

This idea is totally absurd but I can get behind it.
>> No. 170214
>>170209
>get rid of Gensokyo

I'm not sure you're considering the possible consequences of doing that, regardless of the method you would employ to do it. The Border might make it difficult for things to get in or out, but it's not impossible to do so. Nue was able to slip out to bring Mamizou back in, for example. You don't think that at least some other youkai might get a similar idea and decide to take their chances outside if they felt things were going south for them? Sure, it would be harder for them to survive out there, but again, it wouldn't be impossible.

Don't forget, the Scarlets themselves only arrived in Gensokyo within the past decade or so. They've been alive for centuries, and most of that was without the benefit of being in a magical pocket dimension created specifically to make it easier for them to live. If even one other youkai managed to escape, you don't think it wouldn't try to do anything and everything it could to ensure its continued survival? If you think what they're doing now is bad, how much worse would it be if they were desperate and no longer confined to the one place in the world where they had any reason to keep their behavior in check?

And what about everyone you're not trying to eliminate? What about the humans of the village? The younger people might be able to adapt, but the more elderly portion of the population? Old people have enough trouble trying to learn and adapt to changes and advances that occur within their own lifetimes, I doubt plopping them into a world that has developed completely independently of the one they knew is something that would go over well. And what about Cirno? Keine? How would they stand to be affected by all of this?
>> No. 170215
[x] shut up and listen

Also, not sure if anyone else noticed this but we are in a field of gigantic sunflowers. And do you know what that means? That's right boys and girls, Yuuka-Fucking-Kazami! If we don't leave now, we are SCREWED
>> No. 170218
>>170214
>what about the people you don't want dead
>evac the humans

Reading the post is generally recommended. Toss Keine is the getaway wagon too.

And if they busted out, then yeah the outside world would have to deal with Youkai again. Fortunately they've got this wonderful thing called technology. Don't forget that Gensokyo is a place where Youkai can escape the threat of modern man.
>> No. 170219
>>170056
>>170197
>>170218
In general, it's considered polite to sage your posts in story threads unless you are either voting, or you're the author and you're posting a story update.

>>170173
>>170179
>>170209
First, much of this is outside even Wizard's ability to accomplish. To teleport entire planets' worth of people, or to set up a permanent Gate, you would need epic magic or stronger; permanency doesn't work on gate spells. Getting the population of the Human Village out could probably be done with something like a teleportation circle, but it would take time and organization. Time and organization enough for a powerful youkai to put a stop to it before it could be carried out.

Which is the second problem with this idea. Trying to evacuate the youkai's main form of sustenance is sure to raise more than eyebrows. Yukari Yakumo hasn't appeared yet, but she is possibly Lady of Pain tier and certainly more than powerful enough to defeat Wizard if he tries to break Gensokyo completely.

>>170218
>Reading the post is generally recommended.
This applies to you more than him. He was referring to what would become of the humans in Gensokyo in the outside world, since it is so different from Gensokyo, as well as Keine, and Cirno, who would also be saved.

>>170197
It doesn't matter if it's legal by the rules as written. This universe is obviously running more like a universe in play. The trap rules are broken.
>> No. 170221
>>170219

>To teleport entire planets' worth of people, or to set up a permanent Gate, you would need epic magic or stronger; permanency doesn't work on gate spells.

Wrong! Say hello to my little friend, the create portal feat. Just key it to only allow humans through, problem fucking solved.

http://dndtools.eu/feats/forgotten-realms-campaign-setting--19/create-portal--486/

>It doesn't matter if it's legal by the rules as written. This universe is obviously running more like a universe in play. The trap rules are broken.

*shrug* Then use fucking spell clocks. It's very much in line with the RAW and the RAI so you can just fuck off. I prefer traps because they're cheaper is all. D&D 3rd edition magic is fucking broken out the whazoo, deal with it.
>> No. 170227
So, based on the discussion that has taken place so far, we have groups that are saying the following:

>Take away the Youkai's food by evacing the Outside world.
>Get rid of Gensokyo.
>Make a permanent portal and kidnap all the humans by forcing them through it.
>The Youkai aren't going to idly stand by while all of this is happening.

My most dominating concern is as follows:
1. Why would the humans choose to go into an unknown dimension when they already have a stable niche on Earth and in Gensokyo? While we're on the topic of Earth, I would like to ask if you would willingly go through a portal that would lead to another dimension to 'stop man-eating monsters from eating people like you who unfortunately travel into their dimension'? We're not talking about non-sentient animals who will blindly follow Wizardanon; we're talking about our fellow humans who will most certainly consider any attempts to get them to do so as 'a hoax conducted by an insane man'.
2. Does Wizardanon have the knowledge to construct a permanent portal that transcends dimensions? If so, does he have access to the necessary resources, even though we have no idea what is the amount he'll need?
3. Will the suffering that Wizardanon will prevent justify the suffering he will cause by relocating the humans of Gensokyo or Earth? From what I've perceived from this story, the Realms are an extremely dangerous place for the unprepared, and isolated settlements like the Human Village can be easily annihilated by a well prepared monsters, let alone the billions of defenseless and unarmed humans from Earth who will be helpless against the indigenous threats in the Realms. If Wizardanon is going to relocate any sizable human population, he is going to have to answer to the people when they start to get slaughtered in the Realms.

If a D&D person can come up with an appropriate answer to my concerns, then relocating the humans should be something that Wizardanon should put his efforts for the rest of the story in.
>> No. 170228
>>170227
>1. Why would the humans choose to go into an unknown dimension when they already have a stable niche on Earth and in Gensokyo? While we're on the topic of Earth, I would like to ask if you would willingly go through a portal that would lead to another dimension to 'stop man-eating monsters from eating people like you who unfortunately travel into their dimension'? We're not talking about non-sentient animals who will blindly follow Wizardanon; we're talking about our fellow humans who will most certainly consider any attempts to get them to do so as 'a hoax conducted by an insane man'.

Eh, there's a few ways to go about this. Free food and and housing would sway a large majority of the poorer folks. Teleportation circles over major traffic intersections, train tracks etc could work for more, and for the rest there are illusions. Nukes etc, and have the portals disguised as fallout bunkers. And for the the really stubborn there's always the personal touch of forced teleportation or mind control.

>2. Does Wizardanon have the knowledge to construct a permanent portal that transcends dimensions? If so, does he have access to the necessary resources, even though we have no idea what is the amount he'll need?

All it takes is one wish spell to create the portal, since it's a magic item, for those who complained about the youkai who would try to stop him, since it's quicker than building it. He doesn't have the required feat to construct it the old fashioned way in any case. I don't recall what spells Wizardanon knows so permancied teleportation circles may not be workable for bringing people to a single interplanar portal in large number.

>3. Will the suffering that Wizardanon will prevent justify the suffering he will cause by relocating the humans of Gensokyo or Earth? From what I've perceived from this story, the Realms are an extremely dangerous place for the unprepared, and isolated settlements like the Human Village can be easily annihilated by a well prepared monsters, let alone the billions of defenseless and unarmed humans from Earth who will be helpless against the indigenous threats in the Realms. If Wizardanon is going to relocate any sizable human population, he is going to have to answer to the people when they start to get slaughtered in the Realms.

This is something you shouldn't worry about. Even if wizardanon doesn't decide to relocate them to a secure, dimension locked, demiplane, he can still make any city pretty secure. With a few lyre's of building a city built inside a big sphere made out of whatever is immune to conventional attack. Dump in a few weirdstones to block teleportation shenanigans and you're golden against most threats.
>> No. 170230
>>170221
>Just key it to only allow humans through, problem fucking solved.

And the ones who aren't entirely human? You know, like Keine? Or Youmu? Or complete non-humans like Cirno? What about them?


>>170228
>And for the the really stubborn there's always the personal touch of forced teleportation or mind control.

So, if someone doesn't want to leave their home, it's perfectly acceptable to force them to leave, even if you have to resort to mind control to do it because you have decided that is what is best for them.

And you see no problem with that? At all?
>> No. 170231
>>170230
>And the ones who aren't entirely human? You know, like Keine? Or Youmu? Or complete non-humans like Cirno? What about them?

That depends entirely on if we want to bring them along. If we do we can simply gate or planeshift or whatever them to the destination. Their exceptions so it's not a big deal to make extra arrangements for them.

>So, if someone doesn't want to leave their home, it's perfectly acceptable to force them to leave, even if you have to resort to mind control to do it because you have decided that is what is best for them.

>And you see no problem with that? At all?

I didn't say we should use mind control, just trying to give all the options here. Personally if we have to resort to mind control to get someone to leave then I feel they're welcome to stay with the man-eating monsters.
>> No. 170242
>>170231
I, for one, am glad you don't sage your posts, so that everyone can see just how completely pants-on-head retarded your ideas are.
>> No. 170243
>>170231
>>170228
>>170221
>>170218
>>170209
>>170200
>>170197
>>170179
>>170173

Jesus Christ, I never thought I'd go this far, but either you people never think about the consequences of an PC's actions in regards to others around them, or the lot of you are sociopaths.
>> No. 170245
>>170221
>Wrong! Say hello to my little friend, the create portal feat.
Does Wizard have that feat?
Does he have the time and resources on hand or available to build the gate? It requires 50,000 GP of raw materials found in the Realms and possibly unknown in Gensokyo, and over three months (100 days) to build even a one-way portal. But unless I'm reading their description wrong, portals (particularly large portals) also have to be built on the spot, so gating into some other plane to build the portal won't work. Wish would reduce, but not remove, the problems with creating a portal.

Also, do you really think Wizard is the type to sit around for a month and a half building some portal like this, much less the type to do so regularly?

This also does not address the issue of youkai figuring out what he's doing and putting a stop to it, and in fact exacerbates it. A portal is a border, or a breach in one, and as such is easy prey for Yukari.

>*shrug* Then use fucking spell clocks. It's very much in line with the RAW and the RAI so you can just fuck off. I prefer traps because they're cheaper is all. D&D 3rd edition magic is fucking broken out the whazoo, deal with it.
Assuming spells besides the given typical spells are permitted, you can make a spell clock of wish that goes off once a minute at the same price as you can make one of burning hands every 24 hours. The magic item is badly written (among many other things, it says that a cheaper one-use version exists but gives neither its cost nor means to obtain that), and you'd be lucky to not get a heavy source book thrown at your head if you tried making the former item in game.
Also, this runs into most of the same problems as the previous one: it requires not one but two feats which Wizard by no means has (particularly, does he seem to you like the kind of wizard who goes around building golems?), requires 130,000 GP worth of raw materials, and therefore takes over four months to complete a single item. Even if it is more possible to gate into some time-shifted demiplane, Wizard still simply does not seem like the type to sit around building enough of these things to feed an entire planet. Moreover, create food and water is not on Wizard's spell list, and so he cannot make magic items of it without resorting to wish.

Using wish to create magic items is substantially more in character for Wizard. However, in doing so, one runs into the risk of not having enough XP. Wizard is somewhere between 17th and 20th level. One cannot spend so much XP on a spell or item crafting that one goes down a level, and the XP requirement to reach the next level is (current level) * 1000. So Wizard has between 0 and 20000 XP to spend, including 0, not including 20000.
By invoking wish to create a continuous-use portal, one would spend a minimum of (4000 * 2) + 5000 = 13000 XP. By invoking wish to create a spell clock, one would spend (5200*2)+5000 = 15400 XP. If it isn't obvious, these are very large sums of XP, and it is not entirely likely that Wizard even has that much free XP at the moment.
Furthermore even if you did create a portal this way, it does not prevent Yukari from detecting it and shutting it down. She has spies all over the human village, after all.

>>170228
Regarding wish, see above.
Regarding free food and housing, also see above for issues with items for free food and housing in sufficient quantities to feed all those people.
Regarding teleportation circles on major intersections and railroad tracks, even if it works on people in cars and trains (the text says that "any creature who stands on it" is teleported), you're just creating a colossal train and car wreck. Nice going.
Regarding illusions, I don't know of any sub-epic spell that makes illusions the size of nuclear explosions. Most spells which create noticeable illusions, such as major image, scale the volume linearly with caster level with effects in the level of tens of cubic feet; a nuclear explosion has effects in ranges measured in cubic miles. One cubic mile is (5280^3) = 147,197,952,000 cubic feet, requiring a caster level of several trillion. Planets are freakishly huge, and moving the entire population of one is a feat outside the range of even most gods, much less one mortal wizard.

The dubiousness of Wizard's ability to create a portal with Wish has already been addressed. Furthermore, he lacks

Finally, I must reiterate that even should one create a portal off-planet, and even should one find some way to start getting people into it at a rate faster than the planetary birth rate, so as to eventually depopulate the planet, one would still have to contend with Yukari shutting it down and hitting one with a train, because hitting one with a train is well within Yukari's capabilities, a plausible course of action for Yukari to take when dealing with one who is attempting to destroy Gensokyo, and as far as I know, outside the ability of even a high-level wizard's defenses to block.
>> No. 170247
>>170245
>one would still have to contend with Yukari shutting it down and hitting one with a train, because hitting one with a train is well within Yukari's capabilities, a plausible course of action for Yukari to take when dealing with one who is attempting to destroy Gensokyo, and as far as I know, outside the ability of even a high-level wizard's defenses to block.

Avoiding/blocking trains is easy. Just shapeshift.

Problem is, what are the stats for the train?

And about the whole "turning off portal" thing, I dunno. I'm not too sure whether Yukari can control interdimensional portal. She can't even make a direct portal to the moon, and her ability loses to Toyohime's.
>> No. 170250
>>170243

Welcome to the Internet.
>> No. 170253
File 137188410792.png - (742.55KB , 733x900 , 6193c6bbfe64992e11062948c8348b1a.png ) [iqdb]
170253
[X] Shut up and listen.

As you lay there, bleeding from the mouth with a furious were-hakutaku looming over you, you have a sudden flash of brilliance.

It might be a good time to shut the fuck up.

Nevermind that Keine can reverse your most powerful spells at-will and punishes children with headbutts – she's smart. Possibly smarter than you. She asked the question that blew the whole investigation wide-open, and if she had a fraction of your experience she would've reached the same conclusions you have. To say nothing of how she's sheltered, accompanied and supported you in multiple tense situations. You owe her, big time.

So instead of spouting rebuttals, you shut up and listen.

“You are such a self-centered bastard,” Keine growls down at you, her face flushed. “What about Duke? Or Cirno, for that matter? Don't you have any idea what you mean to her? You just-” she swallows and plunges on, “-you just sail into her life and befriend her and spend time with her, but deep down she expects you to ditch her at any second, because that's what everyone else has done!”

You wince, remembering the little fairy's despondent responses to your promises.

“'So what' if you die? So what? What about your friends? What about me!?

You curl up on the ground, clutching at your bleeding mouth. You expected her to criticize your actions, invoke the greater good, not... not this.

You stick a hand into the air and wait patiently till Keine calms down enough to grasp it. She hauls you up with too much force, sending you tumbling into her. She catches you in a bear hug where you slump limply against her, exhausted.

“You're not so mysterious, Mister Wizard,” Keine murmurs into your ear. “And you're not alone.”

Keine smells like smoke and sweat and dirt and sunflowers, and her arms are cradling you tightly. You close your eyes and try to evict your consciousness, fall asleep right there in her arms, but the sour certainty roiling in your gut anchors you.

It can't last.

It never does.

A sharp wooden clack! sounds behind you. You shove Keine away roughly and spin about on one heel, leveling your wand of Lightning Bolt at -

- one of the most beautiful women you've ever seen.

A tall beauty in a plaid skirt and white shirt is leaning forward on the umbrella she just closed, her red eyes contrasting wonderfully with her short green hair. A sweet smile lights her face, the kind that's much more intense in the eyes than the lips. She tilts her head curiously, causing her curling bangs to fall across her pale cheeks just-so.

“Buh?” you manage.

“Young love...” she says dreamily. “So cute...” She straightens slowly, the radiant smile slipping away from her features as she does, leaving nothing but a direct, piercing stare. Her back ramrod-stiff, hands resting on the umbrella's handle like its a sword-pommel.

“If you weren't trampling my flowers for it,” she finishes, her voice cold as ice.

“Flowers,” you repeat numbly, trying to lurch your weary psyche into motion. Once. Then your base instincts take over, your temptation to simply blast her combating the urge to draw your Wand of Fireballs and take out the damn flowers, too.

“Yuuka,” a voice growls from behind you. A powerful grip seizes the back of your clothes and sets you aside, your heels actually skipping over the ground before you're released. Keine steps forward, Kusanagi held in a white-knuckled grip. The schoolteacher is tapping the archaic blade against her leg, her expression blank but for her narrowed eyes.

“...Kamishirasawa?” Yuuka says, the haugty aura vanishing as swiftly as it came. “The half-beast?”

“Were-hakutaku,” Keine corrects her coldly, Kusanagi still tapping out a slow, deliberate beat against her leg.

“Of course. It's been a while,” the green-haired woman says, the warmth back in her eyes. “I-”

Keine's hand blurs, and one huge sunflower blossom goes rolling across the earth. 'Yuuka' jerks as if she's been slapped.

“Miss Kamishirasawa!” she objects, her pale cheeks flushing rosily as she stomps one booted heel. “Mind your manners-”

“Do you remember what they call this sword?” Keine asks softly.

Yuuka clasps her hands to her considerable bosom, her umbrella gripped between them. “B-but I was just-”

“I am really, really not in the mood for it today,” Keine says softly.

“O-okay,” Yuuka says meekly, her chagrin unbearably cute. She retreats into the sunflowers, sending a completely puzzled glance at you before vanishing in the towering stalks.

A weary sigh escapes the schoolteacher as Kusanagi shimmers and evaporates in an upward rain of delphinium light. “I'm getting really, really tired of being interru-”

“TEACHER!” comes a familiar high-pitched bellow, a fraction of a second before a blue-white blur bursts from the sunflowers and impacts Keine around her middle, knocking her onto her keister. “What happened? What happened what happened are you guys okay what happened!?” Cirno babbles, hugging her teacher tight. Duke steps out of the sunflowers behind her.

“What transpired!?” he asks you.

“Uncovered a horrifying conspiracy, turned into a dragon, started a war.”

Duke gazes at you with those inscrutable golden eyes, then slowly elevates his canine head to the same angle as the sunflowers, evaluating the position of the sun.

“By afternoon. A new record.”

“Yeah,” you agree. “Wizard needs a nap.”

****

You wake up about four hours later to find a nearly-translucent Unseen Servant in see-through livery gently shaking you. Finding you awake, it obediently drifts to one corner and waits.

“Coffee,” you croak. It floats out of the room, returning in a minute with a large mug of steaming hot joe. Seizing it, you choke it down black. Forgot to specify cream and sugar. Still, it's coffee. Take that, Sakuya – you've got magic.

You shuffle your mug between hands as you shrug on your freshly-cleaned silk shirt. Shaking your head to clear the cobwebs, you go looking for your companions. You find Keine in the lounge, looking around with fascination.

“You're awake!” she says. “Feeling better?”

“Like hammered shit,” you reply, falling into a comfy stuffed chair. “Which is better than hammered shit that's on fire.”

“So, yes,” Keine says dryly, taking a seat across from you. “So... what is this?” she says, gesturing to your surroundings.

Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. Pretty neat, huh?”

“Where are we right now?”

“An extra-dimensional space.”

“Like... your own little barrier?”

“Not at all. Its an entirely new 'space' that didn't exist before.”

“... so where are we?” Keine repeats, looking a bit uncomfortable.

“Um... imagine all the world, okay? And above it. The endless void between the stars.”

“Okay...” Keine says, looking a bit concerned.

“Its finite. Space itself. The very concept of space. And time, for that matter. There's a place where it just stops, and curves back on itself.”

“... oh,” Keine says, processing the thought.

“This mansion is just a few hundred square feet of 'new' space, with some livability enhancements.” You gesture over an Unseen Servant and relieve him of a tray of tea sandwiches, which you plop in your lap and begin to devour.

“This.... I thought only gods could do this,” Keine says, sounding a bit frightened.

You snort, swallowing the first sandwich. “This only lasts about thirty-six hours. Making it permanent would be the real trick.”
The schoolteacher shakes her head slowly. “I can't believe you manipulate existence itself so easily.”

“Hey!” you protest. “This is one of the most difficult and powerful spells ever penned by Mordenkainen himself. It's not easy. Its a matter of complexity, not power.” You finish another sammich and politely swallow before continuing. “See, there's a certain amount of energy inherent in space-time itself. The fabric of existence and reality, at its essence. Its where magicians draw their power from. So its not terribly difficult to reverse the effect; and turn power into space-time.”

“But building an entire mansion filled with foodstuffs and servants is terribly complex.” Keine concludes.

“Precisely. Its quite easy to just make space; and how much space is just a function of how much power you can handle, and you become more adept with that through experience.”

“So that's how the pocket of your robe works?”

“Yeah. That's a permenant effect – a lot smaller, and a hell of a lot harder to manage.” You swallow the rest of your sandwich whole and pick up another one. “Its why I thought Heaven and Hell and Makai and such were all artificial demi-planes; with all the thousands-year old demi-god like women running around, it wouldn't be terribly hard to make 'em.” You frown. “And usually you don't have so many coterminous points between planes in one area.”

“That was exactly why Gensokyo – and those transient points – were sealed in the first place,” Keine tells you. “Entry points for creatures from other dimensions – direct conduits of spiritual and daemonic energy – it all combined to make Gensokyo a wellspring of youkai.”

“Mmm,” you concur through your sandwich.

Duke strolls into the room, absently rubbing his huge blade with a polishing cloth. “You are awake!” he says.

“Yeah,” you say. “Did Keine fill you in?”

“She told me you discovered the vampire is being provided victims by powerful monsters.”

“Yep.”

Duke fixes you with his intense golden-eyed Serious Look. “She also said you've begun a war which might well destroy this entire refuge and every innocent soul within it.”

...might!” you say, thrusting a finger at Duke in objection.


“Listen,” Keine interjects. “I'm as angry as you-”

You and Duke both try to express skepticism at the same time.

“I AM!” Keine snaps, making you and Duke both flinch. “Human beings have been murdered on my watch for dragon-knows how many years.” She swalllows hard. “And it was concealed from me by the only person in Gensokyo who can. Someone... I thought I could trust. So yes.” She squeezes the arms of her chair. You can clearly hear the wood creaking and splintering in her grasp. “I'm angry. But... you must understand. Gensokoyo was only sealed one-hundred twenty years ago. Human heroes journeyed here for a thousand years, almost from the beginning of recorded Japanese history, to battle the youkai that sprang from here. Reimu only introduced the dueling system very, very recently. Peace is a brand-new thing, but violence and death between humans and youkai is very, very old. Anything could tear up the spell-card rules and plunge us back into open war. And people would die.”

“People are dying!” you shout, slamming your fist onto the tray, flipping it and flinging little sammiches everywhere. “You don't have 'peace.' You have a fucking cattle pen maintained by monsters.”

“Nonsense,” Keine says. “The spell-card rules exist to prevent deaths. Yuyuko... Yukari... they're ancient. Nigh immortal. Life and death has no real meaning to them, much less the value of human life. They think in terms of absolute value – trade a few 'useless' humans to keep the rest safe.”

You sigh, rubbing your head. The horrible revelation that came to you in the Manse of the Scarlet Devil has returned, the sillouete of something horrible and monsterous. “Keine – you told me that Mokou rescues people lost in the Bamboo forest, right?”

“Yes?”

“And Remilia's victims wander in after they vist a big forest to check out, yeah?”

“From what the ghost said... that's what I figure.”

“How do they get through the Barrier?”

“The Barrier fluctuates. It's huge; a tremendous working of magic originally laid down by human priests and later reinforced by youkai – their prison became their refuge. Something that big can't be perfectly stable.”

“And Yukari can't fix that?”

Keine's brow furrows. “Nobody's sure. The barrier is big. It's speculated that not even Yukari could-”

“Who speculates?”

“Akyu-” the name dies in her throat.

“Right,” you mutter. “Ordinary people just 'wander through' a dimensional barrier of unbelievably powerful magic all the time and most of them end up in the bellies of man-eating monsters. Some of which are forked over to the vampires to keep them in line.”

Keine has turned ghost-white. “That can't be. That can't be. One youkai serving up dinner for every beast in Gensokyo? One person – even one Youkai – eve a cabal of youkai couldn't possibly-”

“They don't have to,” you reply. “How hard is it to get through the barrier, exactly? Can anybody besides Yukari do it? Remilia came from Outside, didn't she? When she arrived she started that big scrap Yuyuko mentioned, she had to arrive from somewhere.”

“She did,” Keine says. “And she brought her servants... and the entire damn mansion.”

You blink.

“And Kanako moved an entire shrine... and a small lake.” Her face is troubled, the shadow of a terrible conclusion hovering over it.

“And think – who benefits from the spell-card rules the most? You said it yourself, the youkai reinforced the border. Their prison became their refuge. How many humans are there, compared to youkai? Who loses the war of attrition?”

Keine's breathing is coming harder as she shakes her head in numb denial.

“The local cleric – Ray-moo? She's just flown in the direction of the weird and came out on top twelve times out of twelve. The one who's duty as protector of the town you've largely replaced – you said it yourself. She came up with the spell-card rules?”

Keine shakes her head – this time decisively. “The rules were written on youkai contract paper. Even then, Ak- people doubted she came up with it on her own, but nobody – on its own-”

Keine's fist smashes the chair-arm to splinters as the full weight of it comes down on her. “I've lived here my whole life!” she cries. “I've got the power of the hakutaku itself! How could I be so blind? How could I be so dragon-damned blind!?

“You didn't think to look,” you reply. “Keine, you're decent. You can't even comprehend things this awful are possible, until you've seen it yourself... no matter how smart you are. Trust me... I know.”

Keine flings her hat away angrily and pulls at her hair, quick little breaths escaping her as she tries to contain herself.

“I can't take on a dozen gods,” you say, your voice low and hard. “But I can kill Remilia. I can upset the spell-card system. Rip the curtain away from their little puppet show. It takes countless gears to make a great machine, but smash just one and the whole thing comes to a screaming halt. And that's exactly what I intend to do.”

Keine is cradling her head in her hands, elbows on knees. “Why does it have to be you?” she asks the floor.

You sigh. “If I don't, who will?”

She sits up, raising her head proudly, looking at you with red-rimmed eyes. “Then you might die tomorrow. You almost died today.”

“I-” your denial withers under her steady gaze. “Remilia was even closer. That's as much a margin as you get in a fight like that. Just ask Du-”

The spot where Duke was standing is now conspicuously absent.

That vile rotten dastardly devil-dog dickass. Now there's no more investigations to head up, no more sudden insights to leap at you, not even the possibility of an unexpected interruption. There aren't even any windows to hurl yourself through, not here. A wizard trapped in a spell of his own devising.

You're going to have to talk.

[ ] Ask Keine about herself.
[ ] Ask Keine why she's scared of you.
[ ] Write-in?
>> No. 170255
[x] Ask Keine why she's scared for you.
[x] Ask Keine about herself.

Corrected it as I don't think she's scared OF him but rather for him.

Might as well take advantage of this to make some progress with Keine before everything goes to hell.
>> No. 170256
[ ] Ask Keine about herself.

Have ever actually done such a thing? Just talk about Keine? And not our own adventures and wizardy selfs? I mean shit, the prompt out right calls for communication. First thing there is to actually ask about the other party.
>> No. 170257
>>170253
>Yuuka got shut down
Aw. We'll go back and trade giant lasers later. Maybe.
[x] Ask Keine about the power structure of Gensokyo, and her place in it.
>> No. 170258
[x] Ask Keine about herself.
[x] Ask Keine why she's scared of you.

>>170242
>I, for one, am glad you don't sage your posts, so that everyone can see just how completely pants-on-head retarded your ideas are.

Well I hope you feel you accomplished something with that.

>>170243
>Jesus Christ, I never thought I'd go this far, but either you people never think about the consequences of an PC's actions in regards to others around them, or the lot of you are sociopaths.

Get off your high horse dude. Forget for the moment here the more questionable methods I mentioned to transport people, even if I was just trying to give all the options available to save people from being eaten by monsters.

If wizard actually went all out with this is could result in better quality of life and probably immortality for everyone. He could draw in a large amount of by that alone. Elanification is awesome if he can swing turning large amounts of people into it.

>>170245
>Does Wizard have that feat?
>Does he have the time and resources on hand or available to build the gate? It requires 50,000 GP of raw materials found in the Realms and possibly unknown in Gensokyo, and over three months (100 days) to build even a one-way portal. But unless I'm reading their description wrong, portals (particularly large portals) also have to be built on the spot

No he doesn't. The person I was responding to however was claiming he needed to go epic to build a permanent interplanar portal which is blatantly wrong.

>so gating into some other plane to build the portal won't work. Wish would reduce, but not remove, the problems with creating a portal.

>Also, do you really think Wizard is the type to sit around for a month and a half building some portal like this, much less the type to do so regularly?

Why would he need to do it regularly? One interplanar portal is really all that is needed if he can make teleportation circles to bring to people to it. And if he can save millions of lives? Then yes, yes I think he would do it.

>This also does not address the issue of youkai figuring out what he's doing and putting a stop to it, and in fact exacerbates it. A portal is a border, or a breach in one, and as such is easy prey for Yukari.

Well that runs into the problem any plan has doesn't it? "The powerful youkai are going to mess up your plan! Waah!" Can she act easily outside Gensokyo? If not, then cast a planar bubble spell, leave Gensokoy, and cast the wish to create a interplanar portal. Interplanar portals explicitly still function in dead magic planes(it's in one of the planar books, I forget where and which one, sorry, I'll look it up and post it later when I find it), so the portal would still work even when the planar bubble ends. Any other magic needed in the real world, in case it is dead magic to our magic, would also be in planar bubbles maintained as long as need.

>Assuming spells besides the given typical spells are permitted, you can make a spell clock of wish that goes off once a minute at the same price as you can make one of burning hands every 24 hours.

Yes, you could. Broken! So broken!

>Also, this runs into most of the same problems as the previous one: it requires not one but two feats which Wizard by no means has (particularly, does he seem to you like the kind of wizard who goes around building golems?), requires 130,000 GP worth of raw materials, and therefore takes over four months to complete a single item. Even if it is more possible to gate into some time-shifted demiplane, Wizard still simply does not seem like the type to sit around building enough of these things to feed an entire planet.

Create ice assassins or simulacrums or whatever of yourself, either hire a psion to cast psychic chirgury on them or use wish to imitate it. They are now full up on item creation feats. Even if he doesn't use a time dilated plane to build things fast, he could always go back in time to build up a sufficient runup.

>Moreover, create food and water is not on Wizard's spell list, and so he cannot make magic items of it without resorting to wish.

Wall of Stone. Stone to Flesh. Decanters of Endless Water. Create a spell clock that creates rings of sustenance every minute. Summon djinni's to create food, etc. I was thinking he would hire clerics but he can get by fine with the wizard spell list.

>Using wish to create magic items is substantially more in character for Wizard. However, in doing so, one runs into the risk of not having enough XP. Wizard is somewhere between 17th and 20th level. One cannot spend so much XP on a spell or item crafting that one goes down a level, and the XP requirement to reach the next level is (current level) * 1000. So Wizard has between 0 and 20000 XP to spend, including 0, not including 20000.

Mmm, fair point. There are ways around this however. Metaconcerts are my favourite but probably unavailable so give me some time to dig up other ways. I remember a article on wotc about sharing experience costs but can't find it for the life of me.

>By invoking wish to create a continuous-use portal, one would spend a minimum of (4000 * 2) + 5000 = 13000 XP. By invoking wish to create a spell clock, one would spend (5200*2)+5000 = 15400 XP. If it isn't obvious, these are very large sums of XP, and it is not entirely likely that Wizard even has that much free XP at the moment.

Memory bottles? I'd rather have imitations of him crafting the spell clocks in the regular fashion in a secure location. Take some druggie, give him a nipple clamp of exquisite pain and have him watch a sigil of pain(probably the wrong name, word of pain maybe?). While he's on a permanent high, harvest ambrosia from him. Use this to substitute for experience in crafting.

>Furthermore even if you did create a portal this way, it does not prevent Yukari from detecting it and shutting it down. She has spies all over the human village, after all.

See above, you can create it outside gensokyo if you wanted to, let alone the village.

>>170228
>Regarding teleportation circles on major intersections and railroad tracks, even if it works on people in cars and trains (the text says that "any creature who stands on it" is teleported), you're just creating a colossal train and car wreck. Nice going.

Urgh, angle things so that they don't crash once they go through and use some magic to brake them? I'm positive there are spells that can kill momentum but for the life of me I can't remember where they are. Or just scrap that idea if it's really unworkable.

>Regarding illusions, I don't know of any sub-epic spell that makes illusions the size of nuclear explosions. Most spells which create noticeable illusions, such as major image, scale the volume linearly with caster level with effects in the level of tens of cubic feet; a nuclear explosion has effects in ranges measured in cubic miles. One cubic mile is (5280^3) = 147,197,952,000 cubic feet, requiring a caster level of several trillion. Planets are freakishly huge, and moving the entire population of one is a feat outside the range of even most gods, much less one mortal wizard.

Fair enough, some other more possible illusion then.

>The dubiousness of Wizard's ability to create a portal with Wish has already been addressed. Furthermore, he lacks

Lacks what?

>Finally, I must reiterate that even should one create a portal off-planet, and even should one find some way to start getting people into it at a rate faster than the planetary birth rate, so as to eventually depopulate the planet, one would still have to contend with Yukari shutting it down and hitting one with a train, because hitting one with a train is well within Yukari's capabilities, a plausible course of action for Yukari to take when dealing with one who is attempting to destroy Gensokyo, and as far as I know, outside the ability of even a high-level wizard's defenses to block.

Eh, can teleportation blocking effects no sell her? If not then anything we do can be stopped by her at any time so this argument can be used for all plans.
>> No. 170259
>>170258
sorry, meant psychic reformation, not chirgurgy.
>> No. 170261
[x] Ask Keine about herself.

Oh wow, Deme actually updates this early? Huzzah!

And finally, we get an update that lets us sort things with Keine. It's about damn time.

Also...
>Yuyuko... Yukari... they're ancient. Nigh immortal. Life and death has no real meaning to them, much less the value of human life. They think in terms of absolute value – trade a few 'useless' humans to keep the rest safe.”

If you ask me, this makes them just as arrogant as the Lunarians are. Both see "dem humans" as beneath them after all. And that's a big no-no.

Perhaps it's time for us to give the taste of mortality to them. Show them what fear looks like, since they've gone for far too long without someone challenging their power.
>> No. 170262
[x] Ask Keine about herself.
[x] Ask Keine why she's scared of you.
[x] Ask Keine if she is down to fuck
>> No. 170263
>>170261
Um. Small problem with that. As powerful as Wizard is, Yukari and Yuyuko would barely even need to think to end him if they don't play by spellcard rules, and we've given them every reason not to do so.
>> No. 170264
[x] Ask Keine about herself.
[x] Ask Keine why she's scared of you.
>> No. 170266
>>170263
You're overestimating their power.
>> No. 170268
>>170266
>overestimating
>Yukari and Yuyuko
I'm really not.
>> No. 170269
>>170268
Oh really?
>> No. 170270
[x] Ask Keine about herself.
[x] Ask Keine why she's scared of/for you.

Talk time.


>>170263
Yuyuko, maybe. She does have the power to "invite you to death", after all and she can control the soul afterwards. All D&D resurrection methods are dependent on the soul being free and willing to return.

Yukari.. Eh. She does have the "lol-hax" power of manipulating even conceptual borders, but there are obviously limits to it. Otherwise, why would she lose the Lunarian War?
>> No. 170271
>>170270
>Yuyuko, maybe. She does have the power to "invite you to death", after all and she can control the soul afterwards. All D&D resurrection methods are dependent on the soul being free and willing to return

The top tier stuff have a 50% chance of resurrecting you even if your soul was destroyed.

>Yukari.. Eh. She does have the "lol-hax" power of manipulating even conceptual borders, but there are obviously limits to it. Otherwise, why would she lose the Lunarian War?

How effective is she outside Gensokyo? I remember mentions of her affecting stuff outside, but is her power in any way weakened? Because my only current solution to taking her out is to do it from outside the barrier so that we can resist her better.

>>170258
>Interplanar portals explicitly still function in dead magic planes(it's in one of the planar books, I forget where and which one, sorry, I'll look it up and post it later when I find it)

Found it

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#deadMagic

>The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally.
>> No. 170272
>>170271
Sorry I misread your post. Imprisoning the soul would indeed prevent resurrection. In fact the best way to prevent a enemy from coming back is a Soul Bind or Trap the soul spell.
>> No. 170273
>>170271
Speaking of outside the barrier, will our magic be affected in any way if we go with that plan? I'm not really familiar with how it works in DnD.
>> No. 170274
>>170270
>Yuyuko, maybe. She does have the power to "invite you to death", after all and she can control the soul afterwards. All D&D resurrection methods are dependent on the soul being free and willing to return.

Couldn't we just shapeshift into something that's already dead, like (duh) an undead?

>>170273
No, it won't.
>> No. 170275
>>170273
That depends entirely if the "magic goes away" effect has resulted in a planet wide dead magic trait for our magic or just for youkai magic, I don't know enough about the gensokyo setting to be able to tell, does supernatural stuff still happen in the outside world? If there is a planetwide dead magic field, there are workarounds, like the aforementioned planar bubble spell, or becoming a initiate of Mystra
>> No. 170276
>>170275
Our magic shouldn't be affected considering its existence doesn't come from fear, unlike the youkai's.
>> No. 170277
>>170270
>Otherwise, why would she lose the Lunarian War?
It was my understanding that she lost deliberately to teach the Youkai not to invade the Moon ever again.
>> No. 170278
>>170277
That's just fanon though.
>> No. 170280
>>170274
"Invite" also implies consent. While there must be a supernatural compulsion added to it, it is quite possible that a strong willed human could resist Yuyuko's "invitation to death".

>>170276
That is quite possible. As the Wizard just described, his Magic seems to reside in manipulating Zero Point Energy, which is theoretically possible, if impossible to even fathom with our current technological level.
>> No. 170282
>>170270

Going up against a mastermind who is clever enough to develop a concoction that removes the soul from the cycle of life and death may be a factor. Additionally, attacking an enemy armed with guns which can presumably be loaded with anti-Youkai spiritual ammunition is also a major factor, seeing that the Lunarians would specialize in this type of supernatural warfare. The Lunarians had a mastery of weaponry and magic to the extent that they could possibly also produce a limited anti-magic field, thus negating the powers of most of the Youkai under Yukari's command and then moping them up with killing squads.

We had no idea how the Lunarians actually managed to repel Yukari's army. What we do know is that they had ready access to the magical and technological resources that could easily throttle the invading Youkai.

And Wizardanon doesn't have their resources.
>> No. 170284
>>170282
>Going up against a mastermind who is clever enough to develop a concoction that removes the soul from the cycle of life and death may be a factor.

When did Eirin get kicked out of the moon anyway?

>limited anti-magic field
Yeah, DnD also has those. And yet, some people here keep saying that it won't work with the Touhous because "it's all extraordinary abilities".

>And Wizardanon doesn't have their resources
Well, for starters, he's not up against a whole army in a direct war. And there's always the option of asking help from the planes.
>> No. 170286
[x] Ask Keine why she's scared for you.
[x] Ask Keine about herself.
[x] Have Servants bring her a huge cup o tea and cookies
>> No. 170288
>>170261
>If you ask me, this makes them just as arrogant as the Lunarians are. Both see "dem humans" as beneath them after all. And that's a big no-no.

If you ask me, I think you're misinterpreting something. Are the Lunarians arrogant for viewing humanity as beneath them? Absolutely, you're spot-on there. But how is someone like Yukari employing logic that could easily be summarized as "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" in any way, at all, the same thing?

Sure, "trade a few 'useless' humans to keep the rest safe” sounds horrible. On so many levels, it is. Who are they to decide who is "useless" or not? Who are they to decide what should be done to "keep the rest safe"? But consider how or why they might come to such a judgement in the first place.

If you were to look at it from the point of view of someone who lives for thousands of years, able to watch as countless generations of a certain species are born, grow, reproduce, and eventually die, with each one making their own small contribution to their species as a whole before passing on, how else would you view an individual of that species who ultimately doesn't make such a contribution? Especially when the reason is not because they couldn't compete, but because they actively chose to remove themselves from the pool altogether?

Now suppose this species you're looking over has a predator. A particularly nasty one that, for whatever reason, you are either unwilling or unable to simply kill. When they need to eat, they will kill members of this population, and they have no qualms about being indiscriminate about it. While you are, again, unable or unwilling to kill this predator, you still might have a problem with letting them kill whatever they want like that. So, you make a deal with the predator. You provide them members of this species to feed from, and in exchange they have to leave the rest of them alone. In such a situation, why wouldn't you single out the ones whose removal stood to harm the rest of the species the least? If some among them had to die to feed this predator, and you had to choose which ones, why would you not pick out the ones that were going to kill themselves anyway?

Of course, this "arrangement" doesn't take the will of the species involved into any sort of consideration, and an individual deciding that something is for the best for a group without any input from the group itself could certainly be seen as arrogance, especially when that individual isn't even part of that group to begin with. Were you to consult with this species you were making this decision for, you would almost certainly find a good number of them who objected to it, and they would absolutely right to do so on those grounds.

I would propose to you, though, that while you would find those whose objections were based upon their belief that any plan that involves the deliberate and organized slaughter of members of their species is horrible and evil no matter the circumstances, you wouldn't have to look too hard to find those whose objections weren't based upon the morality of deciding who should live or die, but on the criteria you were using to make your selections. If, instead of those who were suicidal, you were taking those that the species itself had decided were "useless", such as those that had committed serious crimes against members of that species, I suspect they would have no problem with what you were doing, whatsoever. In fact, you would probably find some of them to be quite receptive to the idea, and eager to offer suggestions as to who should be next on the chopping block.

Regardless of all that, though, my main point is this: while Yukari and/or Yuyuko's view of "trade a few 'useless' humans to keep the rest safe” is certainly a lot of things, I don't believe an assertion on their part that "dem humans are beneath them" is among them. Or, at least, if there is one, that it's not intentional on their part. Certainly not like when the Lunarians talk about how humans are beneath them.
>> No. 170289
>>170284

>When did Eirin get kicked out of the moon
The Word of God is incredibly elusive when it comes to precise dates in the Touhou continuity. According to the legend Eirin came from, she defected from the Lunarians at the same time the legend of the bamboo cutter, which means that it falls within the same time period as the Youkai invasion. In other words, we don't know.

>Anti-magic fields can't work on Touhous
All there needs to be is a sort of field that suppresses supernatural phenomena; if that's in place, then the Youkai would literally be helpless, since their powers are based upon the humans' fear of the supernatural.

>Wizardanon doesn't need to go against a whole army, and can get his own from the Planes
If it's a 'one man's war' scenario, I can't envision Wizardanon going up against the Youkai big shots, especially since it'll basically become a power clash. Even though Wizardanon is talented and powerful even by Touhou standards, he cannot overcome a coalition of powerful Youkai, each being as powerful as Remilia, who will band together and fight him in a decisive battle unless he can pull off a miracle.

Additionally, although a few have mentioned that Wizardanon can ask for help from the Planes, I have some doubts about whether or not his allies will be inclined to help what is obviously an insignificant crusade for justice in another dimension that is stable enough without their intervention. I may be assuming a lot here, but I feel that even though wizardanon's allies could overcome the local powers here if they mobilize themselves, my primary concern with that line of thinking is that upsetting Gensokyo's status quo and starting a war against its inhabitants would mandate a sizable force from the Planes that would be better off protecting the Plane from the various evils residing there. Ultimately, it's not a question of 'if wizardanon's allies can help him destroy the status quo', but 'Is it justified for his allies in the Planes to send reinforcements for wizardanon's quest when they already have enough on their hands in the Planes'. After all, they are waiting for him to return, not start a war that they may not have the resources or willpower to conduct.
>> No. 170290
>>170288
>If, instead of those who were suicidal, you were taking those that the species itself had decided were "useless", such as those that had committed serious crimes against members of that species, I suspect they would have no problem with what you were doing, whatsoever. In fact, you would probably find some of them to be quite receptive to the idea, and eager to offer suggestions as to who should be next on the chopping block.

No. No. No. This is basically the death penalty. Notice how many governments do /not/ have the death penalty.

>>170289
>Wizardanon doesn't need to go against a whole army, and can get his own from the Planes
If it's a 'one man's war' scenario, I can't envision Wizardanon going up against the Youkai big shots, especially since it'll basically become a power clash. Even though Wizardanon is talented and powerful even by Touhou standards, he cannot overcome a coalition of powerful Youkai, each being as powerful as Remilia, who will band together and fight him in a decisive battle unless he can pull off a miracle.

Debatable, but yes, we don't want it to come to that. Also, silly anon, miracle is a cleric spell!

>Additionally, although a few have mentioned that Wizardanon can ask for help from the Planes, I have some doubts about whether or not his allies will be inclined to help what is obviously an insignificant crusade for justice in another dimension that is stable enough without their intervention.

Gate in a solar who gates in a solar who gates in a sola-
>> No. 170291
>>170288
>how else would you view an individual of that species who ultimately doesn't make such a contribution? Especially when the reason is not because they couldn't compete, but because they actively chose to remove themselves from the pool altogether?

Proof this is actually happening and they're not just murdering some random homeless guy that "society doesn't need", even though it's not necessarily his fault.

>my main point is this: while Yukari and/or Yuyuko's view of "trade a few 'useless' humans to keep the rest safe” is certainly a lot of things, I don't believe an assertion on their part that "dem humans are beneath them" is among them.

I was talking about how >Life and death has no real meaning to them, much less the value of human life

That quite shows them as arrogant, since they don't give a damn towards human life, compared to their ancient, immortal youkai life.

>>170289
I was talking about the good Outer Planes, specifically. I think there are always good beings there who are itching for some good ol' crusading against evil. Perhaps they would listen to our request.

>All there needs to be is a sort of field that suppresses supernatural phenomena; if that's in place, then the Youkai would literally be helpless, since their powers are based upon the humans' fear of the supernatural.

Yeah, DnD anti-magic field could block that, since that counts as "supernatural".
>> No. 170292
>>170286 Here Just thought of something to add on
[x] Dispense Hugs as necessary
>> No. 170293
[x] Ask Keine about herself.

I still wonder about her transformed state, and why she's keeping it so under wraps.
>> No. 170294
>>170258
>Why would he need to do it regularly? One interplanar portal is really all that is needed if he can make teleportation circles to bring to people to it. And if he can save millions of lives? Then yes, yes I think he would do it.
Because you wouldn't take the feat if you weren't going to do it relatively frequently. And if he reached level 18 and took it now, he wouldn't have enough free XP to build the portal anyway.

>Well that runs into the problem any plan has doesn't it? "The powerful youkai are going to mess up your plan! Waah!" Can she act easily outside Gensokyo? If not, then cast a planar bubble spell, leave Gensokoy, and cast the wish to create a interplanar portal. Interplanar portals explicitly still function in dead magic planes(it's in one of the planar books, I forget where and which one, sorry, I'll look it up and post it later when I find it), so the portal would still work even when the planar bubble ends. Any other magic needed in the real world, in case it is dead magic to our magic, would also be in planar bubbles maintained as long as need.
This problem is most notable in plans involving the Human Village. If your plan involves somehow evacuating the population of the human village and takes longer to do so than a few rounds, Yukari will find out, not through any kind of magic but through old-fashioned spies, and put a stop to it.
I don't know how easily Yukari can act in the outside, but she can act. Getting to the moon is a special case, since the real moon has a border of the same type as the Hakurei border.

Acting in the Outside World much is less likely to draw Yukari's notice, but evacuating the entire Outside is also hopelessly impractical because there are over seven billion humans.

Also, I'm not sure planar bubble works exactly the way you think it works, regarding antimagic zones. It is also rather short in duration.

>Create ice assassins or simulacrums or whatever of yourself, either hire a psion to cast psychic chirgury on them or use wish to imitate it. They are now full up on item creation feats. Even if he doesn't use a time dilated plane to build things fast, he could always go back in time to build up a sufficient runup.
First and foremost, ice assassin shenanigans in most games are something that gets books thrown at heads. The exception is off-the-wall super high optimization campaigns, which, once again, this is not.
Second, wish and limited wish can't emulate psychic reformation because the latter is not a spell, and there are no psions for hire in Gensokyo.
Third, an ice assassin hates the guts of its subject and is consumed by a desire to slay it. Creating one of oneself is, therefore, a bad idea. A simulacrum lacks both this problem and enough levels to create portals and spell clocks, if the latter weren't something that would also cause your DM to throw a guidebook at you.
Fourth, even if you found ways around the other problems I'm not sure manifesting psychic reformation on a simulacrum or ice assassin would work as intended, due to the clause about them being unable to increase their level or abilities. (Psychic reformation first decreases, then increases abilities.)

>Wall of Stone. Stone to Flesh.
Runs into nutritional issues.
>Decanters of Endless Water.
This actually works pretty well, for clean water, at least.
>Create a spell clock that creates rings of sustenance every minute.
My feelings regarding spell clocks and spell traps are already well known. Namely, something that involves books and heads and high-velocity collisions. Particularly if they are emulating the effects of a spell with an XP or material component cost without requiring that XP or material component cost; a DM who accepted those clocks would be well within the rules to declare that the caster must pay any cost required of the spell clock's spell whenever it is cast.
>Summon djinni's to create food, etc. I was thinking he would hire clerics but he can get by fine with the wizard spell list.
Summoning the djinni is actually pretty practical for food matters, but limited in scope and duration, since it's a 7th- or 8th-level spell to summon them and there's only so much that 1 or 1d3 genies can do in less than 40 rounds (assuming it is extended).
Planar binding would also work, but then you run into the whole literal genie problem.

>Memory bottles? I'd rather have imitations of him crafting the spell clocks in the regular fashion in a secure location.
Issues with ice assassin and simulacrum

>Take some druggie, give him a nipple clamp of exquisite pain and have him watch a sigil of pain(probably the wrong name, word of pain maybe?). While he's on a permanent high, harvest ambrosia from him. Use this to substitute for experience in crafting.
Why someone would write these items in the first place, I am not entirely sure. And I don't think someone of Good or even Neutral alignment would pull this. The clamp thing and the symbol, I mean.
You probably refer to symbol of pain, one of a family of symbol spells.

>Fair enough, some other more possible illusion then.
Teleportation circles in places like grocery stores where everybody goes once in a while, and subway stations where many people go frequently, with programmed image spells on the doors and windows to make it look like nobody is disappearing. But it still runs into the problem of scale, namely, that seven billion people are too many to relocate through one gate or even many gates. If Wizard were able to transport one person every second continuously, (unlikely, but possible), it would take him over 220 years to transport everybody, assuming the population stayed roughly constant (more unlikely).

>Eh, can teleportation blocking effects no sell her? If not then anything we do can be stopped by her at any time so this argument can be used for all plans.
Yukari's exact power is up to interpretation, but my own interpretation is this.
If reality like is a computer, then D&D's magic is like a scripting language, and each existing spell is like a script written by someone else. Then Yukari's boundary manipulation is somewhere between C with inline ASM, and raw live machine code with a memory viewer.
She is most likely capable of working around a no-teleport zone, by such things as teleporting in outside it and flying or walking in, or reshaping it so it doesn't include her destination.
And she is only capable of stopping plans she knows of. She's not omniscient. But she does have spies all over the human village; there was an arc involving them in Wild and Horned Hermit, I believe: The zashiki-warashi household spirits, and briefly, hobgoblin replacements.



...But more importantly, I'm not sure very many, if any, of your ideas so far would make for an interesting story. Particularly the ones involving things like evacuating the outside world using ice assassins to craft spell clocks of wish.



>>170271
>How effective is she outside Gensokyo? I remember mentions of her affecting stuff outside, but is her power in any way weakened? Because my only current solution to taking her out is to do it from outside the barrier so that we can resist her better.
If her powers are lessened outside the border, it's due to a lack of belief in magic in the outside world, which would also lessen Wizard's power. If Wizard has some way to stop this, it is likely that Yukari has the same. (See the analogy between powers and computer programs above.)
The most effective way to "take her out", if it really does come to that, would be to cause someone else to do it instead, like Reimu, or Shinki, or Shikieiki Yamaxanadu, or even VIVIT or a Samidare-series aircraft if you really want to reach. She's more powerful and more importantly more versatile than Wizard, but she can be defeated by someone more powerful than her. Of course, that is hardly the only solution.
>> No. 170296
>>170291
>Proof this is actually happening and they're not just murdering some random homeless guy that "society doesn't need", even though it's not necessarily his fault.
Remember the ghost a while back talking about his wife being a picture?
Yeah.

>>170284
>When did Eirin get kicked out of the moon anyway?
"The Tale of the Bamboo Cutter" is the story upon which Eirin and Kaguya are based.
It dates to the 10th century, so it was some time before then.
>> No. 170298
>>170294
>Because you wouldn't take the feat if you weren't going to do it relatively frequently. And if he reached level 18 and took it now, he wouldn't have enough free XP to build the portal anyway.

Certainly, something like this is definitely not workable right now in any case, but it's something to strive to.

>Also, I'm not sure planar bubble works exactly the way you think it works, regarding antimagic zones. It is also rather short in duration.

The Dead Magic Planar trait, not antimagic fields. It'd do jack shit against a antimagic field, but I /think/ it would work against a dead magic planar trait. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

>First and foremost, ice assassin shenanigans in most games are something that gets books thrown at heads. The exception is off-the-wall super high optimization campaigns, which, once again, this is not.

We're going up against the level of opponents that I feel half justified in using it, but okay.

>Second, wish and limited wish can't emulate psychic reformation because the latter is not a spell, and there are no psions for hire in Gensokyo.

After establishing the interplanar portal, we hire a psion from our prime material. And whether wish can emulate psychic reformation depends on whether the level of psionics-magic transparency I suppose.

>Third, an ice assassin hates the guts of its subject and is consumed by a desire to slay it. Creating one of oneself is, therefore, a bad idea.

Certainly. Our wizard isn't exactly known as a font of wisdom though.

>A simulacrum lacks both this problem and enough levels to create portals and spell clocks, if the latter weren't something that would also cause your DM to throw a guidebook at you.

We don't need simulacrums to create the interplanar portals, I maintain one should be enough if we make it big enough and manage to up the speed of transference to a acceptable level. Or we can make more of them personally if we need to.

Spell clocks, well yes, which is another reason I prefer traps. But really, wizard alone is adequate with appropriate infrastructure and time manipulation.

>Fourth, even if you found ways around the other problems I'm not sure manifesting psychic reformation on a simulacrum or ice assassin would work as intended, due to the clause about them being unable to increase their level or abilities. (Psychic reformation first decreases, then increases abilities.)

Then use psychic reformation on yourself first and then make the simulacrums before changing yourself to your preferred transfigurations?

>food

Polymorph any object, M's Magnificent Mansion, etc.


>But it still runs into the problem of scale, namely, that seven billion people are too many to relocate through one gate or even many gates. If Wizard were able to transport one person every second continuously, (unlikely, but possible), it would take him over 220 years to transport everybody, assuming the population stayed roughly constant (more unlikely).

Prioritising those of breeding age and younger it might be more feasible but point. I'm starting to think time shenanigans would be needed to make it more feasible, which is totally possible. And I'm thinking 1 human per second is actually pretty easy with proper infrastructure and higher numbers are possible if we can get them to co-operate with the evacuation.


>...But more importantly, I'm not sure very many, if any, of your ideas so far would make for an interesting story. Particularly the ones involving things like evacuating the outside world using ice assassins to craft spell clocks of wish.

Mmm? I'd prefer not to use spell clocks of wish if it's all the same to you. If go down the infinite wish rabbit hole then either Wizard will have no challenge left or Deme will come down on us with the banhammer or something similar.

Personally I'd enjoy a story of wizard trying to evacuate humanity but tastes differ I suppose, and it might be easier to just kill the man eating monsters.

>Yukari
Well yes, I was considering how we would deal with her if we had to. I would greatly prefer not to have to battle the border manipulating youkai.
>> No. 170299
[X] Make a window.

Death before open communication.
>> No. 170300
>>170293
DING DING DING DING!
>> No. 170301
>>170291
>Proof this is actually happening and they're not just murdering some random homeless guy that "society doesn't need", even though it's not necessarily his fault.

Remember ghosts? And how things were all "these ghosts are from suicides"? Which, in turn, led to the investigations and revelations about where the Scarlets get their food from, and how it was being supplied to them?

You know, like what Yuyuko explicitly said in >>163580

>“They were suicidal. And Outsiders. They're of little significance – doubly so.”
>“Nobody knows them,” Yuyuko says. “Or mourns them, and there was no murder, even.”

I don't know about you, but I would think the admission that "yeah, we pretty much let them eat people who want to kill themselves" is pretty strong support for the notion that they really are targeting people who are/were trying to kill themselves, and not simply plucking random hobos off the street.


>I was talking about how >Life and death has no real meaning to them, much less the value of human life
>That quite shows them as arrogant, since they don't give a damn towards human life, compared to their ancient, immortal youkai life.

Well, it's not like they hold any other form of life in any higher regard than they do those of humans, either. Why would they place any special importance on something that, from their perspective, is here and gone in the time it takes them to blink? Would you?

Look at it this way: in Japan alone, there have been about 110,792,515 deaths between 1900 and 2012, assuming my number-crunching and the stats on Wikipedia are accurate. Over a hundred million deaths over the course of a little more than one century. Yukari and Yuyuko have, presumably, been around for several centuries, at the very least. How many more people have died in just that one part of the world since either of them was born? Why, out of the the hundreds upon hundreds of millions of lives that they've witnessed come and go without hindering the growth and spread of the population, would you think either of them would see any problem with the tiniest fraction of that amount being used to keep some brat and her nutjob sister in line?

Honestly, from what you're saying, I get the feeling that your perception of them being arrogant for regarding human life the way they do has less to do with any actual arrogance being displayed on their part, and more to do with your own feelings towards the notion that someone, anyone, would or could regard humans and their lives as anything other than the special little snowflakes with their own special place in the world that you clearly feel they should be viewed as. Yet, there is absolutely no logical reason why someone like Yukari or Yuyuko would view human lives that way. We're basically measuring drops of water compared to other drops of water. They're measuring drops of water compared to an entire ocean.
>> No. 170302
>>170301
>Why would they place any special importance on something that, from their perspective, is here and gone in the time it takes them to blink? Would you?
>Lots of bullshit.


Yes I would, because in that brief span of time the human is a living, thinking, sapient, talking being, who can communicate with me in a shared framework of ideas and concepts. Immortality doesn't give you the right to cheapen human life simply because it is short. It is because it is short that it should be even more precious you fuckwad.

"there are so many humans, it's like discerning between drops of water in the ocean". That's a very human outlook, past a certain point large numbers just blend together for humans. But if these youkai were so knowledgeable, they'd know each human, his fears and dreams and hopes and ambitions. And then they'd sentence them to be eaten by monsters.
>> No. 170303
>>170302
Okay, the first thing that springs to mind is that Yuyuko is human. Dead, but human. So, having that kind of human outlook is reasonable for her.

As for Yukari, who can tell? Some interpretations have her as human in all but species; others, you would be as hard-pressed to understand her as you would be to understand Cthulhu.
>> No. 170304
>>170303
>We're going to need another skyship.
>> No. 170305
>>170302
>It is because it is short that it should be even more precious you fuckwad.

Well, that's just it, isn't it? The idea of "beauty in transience" and all that. It might be a human idea, but who's to say youkai like Yukari don't share a similar concept? Particularly in regards to human life? The only thing we know here about her views on humanity is how it pertains to a very specific situation.

Maybe she feels bad about the arrangement, maybe she doesn't. Maybe she's doing what she considers to be the "best" or "least harmful" thing to do under the circumstances, or maybe she just doesn't give a shit. For all we know, she'll tell you herself at some point.

Of course, I'm sure that whatever she might say, it will be immediately refuted by a punch to the face. So, whatever.

Also, way to keep the discussion operating at a civil level, guy. Really. Good job. Keep it up.


>>170303
Excellent point about Yuyuko, though don't you suppose her view on things might have shifted from what they were when she was a flesh-and-blood human who is fated to die now that she's, well, not? And, for that matter, hasn't been one for quite a long time? Once you start counting your lifespan in centuries, is there any reason your views on life and the people living it couldn't change?
>> No. 170307
>>170304

But where would you get another skyship in Gensokyo?
>> No. 170308
>>170307

Byakuren has one.
>> No. 170309
>>170308
Until it was made into Myouren Temple.
>> No. 170310
>>170309

A minor setback. I'm sure she won't mind us borrowing her temple for a bit to use it's flying engine.
>> No. 170311
File 137193490440.jpg - (56.67KB , 960x720 , Creation.jpg ) [iqdb]
170311
[X] Ask Keine about herself.


>“This.... I thought only gods could do this,” Keine says, sounding a bit frightened.

>You snort, swallowing the first sandwich. “This only lasts about thirty-six hours. Making it permanent would be the real trick.”

Well technically wizard could make permanent dimension for himself with genesis spell if was aware of it.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm
I really love this spell.
>> No. 170312
File 137193778765.jpg - (479.14KB , 1117x734 , 1275868042023.jpg ) [iqdb]
170312
>>170311
>epic level rules
>But only a 9th level spell

wot
>> No. 170313
File 137193873852.jpg - (88.23KB , 1014x788 , epic_wizard_riding_shark_surfing_raptor_by_biali-d.jpg ) [iqdb]
170313
>>170312
Genesis was introduced in ELH.

btw. Are you planning to finish quest before or after wizard will reach epic levels?
>> No. 170314
>>170301
>Honestly, from what you're saying, I get the feeling that your perception of them being arrogant for regarding human life the way they do has less to do with any actual arrogance being displayed on their part, and more to do with your own feelings towards the notion that someone, anyone, would or could regard humans and their lives as anything other than the special little snowflakes with their own special place in the world that you clearly feel they should be viewed as. Yet, there is absolutely no logical reason why someone like Yukari or Yuyuko would view human lives that way. We're basically measuring drops of water compared to other drops of water. They're measuring drops of water compared to an entire ocean.

Then, by that rule, you can also say that the Lunarians aren't arrogant, since they have a perfectly logical reason to view the humans less than their own kind. They are immortal, they have peace and prosperity unlike the warring humans, they have a much higher technology level, etc.

>>170294
>my own interpretation is this

Yeah, no.

>If her powers are lessened outside the border, it's due to a lack of belief in magic in the outside world, which would also lessen Wizard's power.

No, no it wouldn't. DnD magic is not Touhou magic.
>> No. 170315
>>170314
Hm. It would be better to say "a disbelief in magic". In any case, the same concept exists in D&D and especially in Planescape.

Likewise with the Touhou outside world. Many people in the outside world believe that what they think of as "magic", including both Yukari's powers and Wizard's, is fake. If either of them is weakened by this, both of them are, because the average Joe Skeptic doesn't care about the difference between wizardry and boundary manipulation.

In the case of a simple lack of belief, for example, due to an absence of humans to believe, Yukari's powers would work normally, but she would eventually starve, assuming she is a more or less normal youkai.
>> No. 170319
[X] Ask Keine about herself.
Two updates, one thread.
>> No. 170321
>>170315
>If either of them is weakened by this, both of them are, because the average Joe Skeptic doesn't care about the difference between wizardry and boundary manipulation.

That doesn't make sense. I've told you before, DnD arcane magic doesn't come from belief.

Heck, the Wizard says so right on the update.

>"See, there's a certain amount of energy inherent in space-time itself. The fabric of existence and reality, at its essence. Its where magicians draw their power from. So its not terribly difficult to reverse the effect; and turn power into space-time.”
>> No. 170322
>>170315
Oh, and the whole Planescape thing only applies to the existence of the Outer Planes, as far as I know. I've never heard of arcane magic being weakened because of disbelief in it.
>> No. 170323
>>170314
>Then, by that rule, you can also say that the Lunarians aren't arrogant, since they have a perfectly logical reason to view the humans less than their own kind. They are immortal, they have peace and prosperity unlike the warring humans, they have a much higher technology level, etc.

Except not really, on multiple counts. The Lunarians aren't really immortal, and in fact one of them who actually is was banished by them for becoming immortal. Or, at least, helping to make and then consuming the elixir that enabled her to become immortal. Peace and prosperity is also not exactly something they got going on. Part of Reisen's backstory is that she was a military deserter who, according to the Yama, abandoned her comrades on the moon, leaving them to die while she fled to Earth. Meaning, there was something going on to cause her abandoned comrades to die.

Besides all that, I think it speaks volumes about how "superior" their society really is when you consider that, after banishing Kaguya to Earth as form of punishment, they changed their minds, came down to bring her back, and her response was basically "no, fuck off, I like it here." Think about that. This princess, born and raised in a society built upon the view the the Earth as a whole was a vile, corrupted, unclean mass of filth and death and decay, who view the Earth with such disdain that they consider sending people there to be a form of punishment. And she would rather stay there for the rest of her eternal life then ever go back home.
>> No. 170327
[x] ask keine about herself
>> No. 170329
>>170321
>>170322
There are various times in D&D's cosmology, in various settings, including Forgotten Realms, where things have happened or have been prophesied to happen which have interrupted or altered the functionality of arcane magic on a wide scale: for example, the Spellplague, and everything to do with the second edition module "Die Vecna Die!", which led into a rules change to third edition. and that large amounts of people believing or disbelieving something is also known to cause such widespread effects.

In any setting using the Planes, belief and disbelief affect more than simply the state of the Outer Planes.
For example, in Planescape: Torment, you can prove to a man that he does not exist. He will thereafter cease to exist. This applies on wider scales as well, and beyond merely the Planes.
The gods are terrified of it being used against them, particularly in Forgotten Realms, where they built the Wall of the Faithless out of the souls of disbelievers.
There is also a very specific reference to magic, including arcane magic, being stifled by disbelief, and it's even third edition: In the Ravenloft campaign setting, the land of Lamordia is populated heavily by skeptics. Their prevalent disbelief in the supernatural sometimes causes spells to fail and magical creatures to weaken.

Youkai and gods outside Gensokyo are not just starving to death through lack of faith, although that is also a problem for them. Their very existences are being denied; look what happened to the rest of the yamabiko. This sort of thing is exactly what the FR gods are afraid of. Therefore, the Outside World disbelieves in the supernatural so strongly that the supernatural is being actively erased.

Summarizing:
It is possible to disrupt the functionality of arcane magic.
Belief and disbelief can have very powerful effects on the supernatural both in D&D's Great Wheel meta-setting and in Touhou's setting.
The Touhou outside world disbelieves with enough force to deny the existence of youkai on a wide scale.

I can't say whether Wizard's powers would or would not work in the outside. I will say that Yukari's powers are also not divine magic, but some sort of power mostly inherent to her and more similar to arcane magic than to anything else. And I will say that if Wizard is able to go at full power in some place in the outside world, then Yukari most likely is as well, and if Wizard's powers are suppressed, most likely Yukari's are as well, because the same sorts of things suppress them.

I will also say that trying to fight Yukari head-on is suicide. Suicide by train, specifically. And on that note:

>>170247
>Avoiding/blocking trains is easy. Just shapeshift.

>Problem is, what are the stats for the train?
I don't know about game stats, but the real-world numbers are pretty painful.
A fully-loaded freight train moving at full speed has kinetic energy comparable to a tactical nuclear weapon.
Any solid creature would be slain and probably reduced to a fine paste by the impact alone. It would certainly be reduced to a fine paste if the train further pushed it against a wall or boundary.
Transforming into an incorporeal creature might work, unless Yukari invoked the "Border between Solid and Ethereal" and gave the train something like ghost touch.
>> No. 170331
>>170323
>The Lunarians aren't really immortal

Yes, they are, in a sense they won't die of old age. You know, kinda like the youkai.

>one of them who actually is was banished by them for becoming immortal. Or, at least, helping to make and then consuming the elixir that enabled her to become immortal.

That's a different kind of immortality.

>Part of Reisen's backstory is that she was a military deserter who, according to the Yama, abandoned her comrades on the moon, leaving them to die while she fled to Earth. Meaning, there was something going on to cause her abandoned comrades to die.

And that's because she's a coward who's afraid of going to "war" with the humans.

I really don't see your point. They have peace until dem youkai and humans start invading them.

>
Besides all that, I think it speaks volumes about how "superior" their society really is when you consider that, after banishing Kaguya to Earth as form of punishment, they changed their minds, came down to bring her back, and her response was basically "no, fuck off, I like it here." Think about that. This princess, born and raised in a society built upon the view the the Earth as a whole was a vile, corrupted, unclean mass of filth and death and decay, who view the Earth with such disdain that they consider sending people there to be a form of punishment. And she would rather stay there for the rest of her eternal life then ever go back home.

Oh please, taking the biased word of one girl who has a grudge against the Lunarians as the representative of their whole society? Surely you jest.

Kaguya knows jack shit about what Earth is truly like. She never bothers to visit the bad parts.

You see, this is what I mean by favoritism. If it's concerning something they like, they always prioritize the positives. But if it's something they don't like, they always focus on the negatives.

>>170329
>Lamordia
Isn't that more because the realm is cursed (it's harder to cast arcane magic) so the people there grow skeptical of it since they rarely encounter it? Instead of the other way around?

>Transforming into an incorporeal creature might work, unless Yukari invoked the "Border between Solid and Ethereal" and gave the train something like ghost touch.

Yeah, we don't know whether she can do that or not.
>> No. 170332
>>170331
>Isn't that more because the realm is cursed (it's harder to cast arcane magic) so the people there grow skeptical of it since they rarely encounter it? Instead of the other way around?
It's Ravenloft, so a curse wouldn't be surprising, but as far as I can tell from all the resources I can get at, it really is active disbelief causing magic to not work right.

>Yeah, we don't know whether she can do that or not.
Exactly.
I can conceive of it as a border, so it's conceivable that she can do it. We don't have established limits on her powers, so we don't know for sure whether she can or not.
We do know she can gate in trains, and her powers are allegedly extremely versatile - much like a wizard's. So it would be safe to assume that even if she isn't capable of making a train able to hit the immaterial, that she has some ability that will strike incorporeal and ethereal foes.
>> No. 170333
>>170332
>It's Ravenloft, so a curse wouldn't be surprising, but as far as I can tell from all the resources I can get at, it really is active disbelief causing magic to not work right.

Link please. Not too familiar with Ravenloft myself.
>> No. 170337
>>170333
The sources are books, so linking to them is difficult, but I'll give you the names. They are the Ravenloft Campaign Setting, Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide, and Ravenloft Player's Handbook.
Actually, re-reading it, it up and says in the Ravenloft Player's Handbook (which is the most up-to-date, being 3.5e) that 'Lamordia's magic rating is actually a 2, but may drop to 0 wherever a large segment of the populace dwells. This is due to their extreme "rationality" and disbelief in magic.' (Ravenloft PHB, page 147.) You can hardly get clearer than that.
>> No. 170338
>>170331
>I really don't see your point. They have peace until dem youkai and humans start invading them.

So, you're saying the Lunarians are at peace, except for the times that they are not. Right.
And the Scarlet Devil Mansion isn't a haven for murder and cannibalism aside from the times that it is.

If you claim something exists in a certain state, yet there signs of it currently existing in a completely opposite state, doesn't that mean it's not in the state you originally claimed it was?

Even if they're not actually in a state of open war with anyone, even if much of the conflicts that have cropped up for them have been the result of misunderstandings, such as interpreting the moon landing as a serious invasion attempt, can you honestly say they're truly at peace? Is jumping at shadows, perceiving even the most distant and benign intrusions on the moon to be legitimate threats regardless of how much of a threat they actually pose a sign of a stable, peaceful society?

As for this:
>You see, this is what I mean by favoritism. If it's concerning something they like, they always prioritize the positives. But if it's something they don't like, they always focus on the negatives.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but if you're invoking that on me, I must respond by respectfully calling bullshit. Whether I am arguing the positives or negatives of something, particularly in matters like this, has very little to do with how I feel about the thing itself. I quite like the Yorihime and Toyohime, to be honest, and think the Lunarian society as a whole serves as an interesting foil to Gensokyo. Hell, if you were to try arguing why they're arrogant and how it's wrong for them to be like that, I'd probably be arguing why their arrogance isn't entirely undeserved.

Of course, I doubt I would be doing any better arguing that point than I was arguing for what I have been, but whatever. Mostly, I think I just enjoy being contrary, and I find these sorts of discussions interesting regardless of what side I'm on the moment.
>> No. 170339
>>170337
Yeah, it's actually there. Just checked it myself.

Not everyone's okay with it though, like this guy.

>In a MR 0 domain, people believe in science instead of magic, so spells takes three times the normal time to learn, study and cast, because "the lack of belief in magic espoused by the land's inhabitant" ? Since when in D&D does the populace belief has a link to magic's effectiveness where they live ? An option I will not use.

I think we'd better wait for Deme to confirm whether or not he uses this optional rule.
>> No. 170340
>>170338
>If you claim something exists in a certain state, yet there signs of it currently existing in a completely opposite state, doesn't that mean it's not in the state you originally claimed it was?

It's at peace now, and the thousands of years before the whole "invasion" thing. It's not their fault they get invaded, unlike the humans, who keeps having conflicts after conflicts after conflicts due to their own fault.

>Is jumping at shadows, perceiving even the most distant and benign intrusions on the moon to be legitimate threats regardless of how much of a threat they actually pose a sign of a stable, peaceful society?

Yes, they're at peace. Only the higher ups care about such things. The rest? Living a nice and carefree life.

>Mostly, I think I just enjoy being contrary, and I find these sorts of discussions interesting regardless of what side I'm on the moment.

Oh, okay then. I can also argue how the Lunarians need to learn how humanity isn't as bad as they think.

I'm just tired of people giving the benefit of the doubt when the characters they like do something morally questionable while not doing the same when the characters they hate do the same.
>> No. 170351
>>170270
There are various reasons why Yukari would want to lose the war. Maybe it was just a hoax and she was trying to do something different. Maybe it was only a side-objective and she didn't concentrate on it enough. Maybe they developed a counter to her abilties. Or hell, maybe she was just playing around. She is old enough to see interplanetar wars as a form of entertainment.

Wait a Moment, Kusanagi isn't called grass-cutting-sword, but it's name actually means that.

Also, one person mentioned that the Realms would be a very dangerous place for the people of Gensokyo and the humans on earth. (If wizanon actually managed to move everyone/The planet earth) While this may be true for the people from Gensokyo to some degree. (It depends on whether they still have some of these over the top monster hunter abilities of their ancestors) It shouldn't be a Problem for mundane People. The Realms are a Fantasy Setting and thus don't have things as guns, tanks, cars and so on. In fact, it is as likely for the normal humans to destroy the People of the realms as it is the other side around. It all depends on Interpretation and the Magic vs. Science debate.

Hmmmm.... is it possible for us to teach the people in the outside world our style of magic? Showing that the supernatural exists shouldn't only make the Yokai happy, but also give us new directions to go. It also makes normal humans much less helpless.

>>170303
Well, in canon she may, or may not be a dreaming person that searches for the occult, living as a relatively normal person in the human world, while at the same time being Yukari Yakumo. (There is nothing impossible, ESPECIALLY if it makes no sense.)

>>170338
We don't know if the moon landing was actually peaceful. It was never clearly mentioned in Canon if I am correct. Sure, it is what happened in our world, but for all that we know the Lunarians were actually dead on right. (I know it sounds crazy, but crazier things have happened in fiction.) For example, if they sabotaged the landing, how come that no one on earth knows of that? Hell, there were other times when people send things on the moon, either for scouting or landing. Wouldn't anyone have noticed something odd. In fact, shouldn't the government of the U.S.A. have tried it again in secret if it didn't work the first time around. (In fact, wasn't there a race between the different nations for the first shot at the moon. The russians should have noticed the failure and jumped at the chance to win.)

>>170340
How much energy did they invest into becoming that peaceful? How much of that is natural and how much comes from being on the moon "a pure land" for so long. There are these that say that if you cannot die of old age you would do anything to avoid death through other means, even if it meant being more peaceful then you would like. It is also unknown how much of their society is truly peaceful and how much they have to enforce it. They apparently have a ready Military and had it for... how Long? Most nations have really backwater armies when they have no real enemy for a Long time. I should know, my own Nation still uses technology from the second world war and has almost nothing Special, mostly because there is no enemy that would fight us. And the army is only used for such things as supporting civilian organizations and helping out other nations as peacekeeper. The moon army seems pretty ready for battle. What did they use it for these thousands of years?

PS: I am not the one that you quoted before, any of them.
>> No. 170358
>>170351
>How much energy did they invest into becoming that peaceful? How much of that is natural and how much comes from being on the moon "a pure land" for so long. There are these that say that if you cannot die of old age you would do anything to avoid death through other means, even if it meant being more peaceful then you would like.

Good for them then. With that reason, they can argue that they're inherently superior to the mortal humans.

Of course, with the same reason, you can also argue that you can't really blame the humans that much for being not-so-peaceful unlike them.

>They apparently have a ready Military and had it for... how Long? Most nations have really backwater armies when they have no real enemy for a Long time. I should know, my own Nation still uses technology from the second world war and has almost nothing Special, mostly because there is no enemy that would fight us. And the army is only used for such things as supporting civilian organizations and helping out other nations as peacekeeper. The moon army seems pretty ready for battle. What did they use it for these thousands of years?

About that, you could argue that they aren't "ready for battle" at all, considering how they apparently have trouble fighting with the humans. And we all know how the rabbits are a joke.

But, like you said yourself, we honestly are just speculating at this point. There are too many unclear things about the Lunarians.

And like I've said before, I'd like more people to give them the benefit of the doubt, since pretty much all stories involving them that I know of portray them as this tyrannical, secretly-dystopian society. Hell, they'd even make shit up to make them even worse.

Understand though that I'm not asking for people to stop portraying them negatively completely. It's the variety that matters.

And for that same reason, I like this story. In a fandom where there are loads and loads of positive Gensokyo stories, a story with a negative one is most welcome.

>PS: I am not the one that you quoted before, any of them.

Don't worry, I can tell by your post.
>> No. 170363
>>170358
Of course, I didn't want to say that they are evil, just that they aren't necessarily good. As you have pointed out, we really don't know that much about them.

Still, note, the rabbits appear like cannon fodder to me. Just compare them to the princesses with their super weapons that can totally screw with the rules of the universe. Just consider what would happen if more members of the Nobility with such weapons and privileges were to fight. Also, what fighting? I know I said the possiblity exists that the moon landing was actually a Invasion in-universe, but if it wasn't it would mean there wasn't any battle at all.

Also, thanks for the nice explanation of your viewpoint.
>> No. 170364
>>170363
>Of course, I didn't want to say that they are evil, just that they aren't necessarily good.

Indeed.

>Still, note, the rabbits appear like cannon fodder to me.

It's more like "dude, those troublemaking rabbits need to learn some discipline, so how about we send 'em to those sisters? I heard they'd love to train them". Nobody seriously expects them to fight.

I mean, look at them. Even as cannon fodders they're worthless.

>Just compare them to the princesses with their super weapons that can totally screw with the rules of the universe.

I think you're a wee bit exaggerating there.

>Just consider what would happen if more members of the Nobility with such weapons and privileges were to fight.

Yeah, we don't know that. For all we know, only those two can actually fight.

Again, unclear.

>Also, what fighting? I know I said the possiblity exists that the moon landing was actually a Invasion in-universe, but if it wasn't it would mean there wasn't any battle at all.

Well, yeah, you talked about that so I responded by bringing it up.

And yet again, unclear.
>> No. 170365
>>170329
>I don't know about game stats, but the real-world numbers are pretty painful.
>A fully-loaded freight train moving at full speed has kinetic energy comparable to a tactical nuclear weapon.

Yeah, we don't know the numbers, so we can't say for sure.

But honestly, I don't really see the point of this powerlevel speculation. We're not even sure we're going to fight her.

Hell, just remember Flandre. People were saying how she's going to kick our ass after we fight Remilia, but all that discussion were for nothing in the end.

And it's not like we're not going to have the discussion again in the future where we actually have to face her.
>> No. 170371
...Sorry, but I got totally lost during this entire argument about evacuating Earth. Why the hell would you evacuate Earth? Leave those 7 billion sceptics to their orbital elevators and just move Gensokyo to some plane where magical critters are believed in that isn't all that hostile - so more Oerth than Athas, even if the Grey wouldn't fuck with interplanar connctions.
Not that I see any pressing reason to move people in general - maybe you could just shift Gensokyo so that it's a demi plane in the Astral and link it up to some plane where they might be more welcomed.

...I just realised that Athas is pretty much the best place to get 'useless' people, if only by virtue of the entire Sphere being FUBAR. And yet the Grey stops that! Truly there are no perfect solutions.
Unless you just dump the maneaters in Ravenloft, but that's boring.

Hey, stream-of-consciousness question: could Border Manipulation fuck with Dark Sun's Grey?
>> No. 170372
>>170371
>Hey, stream-of-consciousness question: could Border Manipulation fuck with Dark Sun's Grey?

Signs point to yes.
>> No. 170395
>>170293
>>170300
Didn't Keine already tell us about that in the very first thread? Has she forgotten about that? (*I* forgot. It's been years since thread 1.)
>> No. 170398
Genesis costs EXP to cast however. I could read through that update and view it with the light of 'Yeah I COULD do it, but that wouldn't be worth the price tag.'
>> No. 170401
>>170395

Oh, she told you that she transforms into a were-hakutaku. You know that in the academic sense.

It still hasn't suck into Wizard's fucking skull yet that she's a bit worried about it; despite her bapping Cirno for almost spilling it.
>> No. 170406
>>170401
hey
maybe wizard should shapeshift into a hakutaku, see what it's like
>> No. 170407
>>170371
Oh, LOL. Dumping Gensokyo into Ravenloft. I wonder who the Dark Lord would be? Probably either Yukari or Reimu.

Once we finish our relationship stuff with Kiene, and start working out our next course of action, I'm totally going to vote for that.
>> No. 170408
>>170407
Well, they DO already have a border and a village of villagers who may-or-may-not be eaten sometimes...
>> No. 170419
>>170407
Reimu's not evil enough.

What do you think the likelihood of Yukari or someone pulling a Vecna in that situation is, though?
>> No. 170432
>>170419
From what I remember of Ravenloft you don't need to actually be EVIL to be the ruler of a pocket of Ravenloft. You just have to be the central figure that anchors that pocket to the rest of the plane.
It's just that Ravenloft is a setting of gothic horror where there never is a single night without at least something going bump in it, and thus you won't meet a lot of actually, honest to goodness, GOOD people there.
>> No. 170447
>>170432
But Darklords, by definition, are individuals who have committed some crime horrific enough to draw the attention of the Dark Powers, and are being punished for it. Reimu is kind of lazy, but she hasn't really done anything evil. When Shikieiki lectured her in PoFV, most of what her lecture was about Reimu being overly aggressive in beating up youkai and being insufficiently diligent as a shrine maiden.
>> No. 170513
>>170447
Okay, I haven't poked around in Ravenloft for quite some time, so I guess I forgot that detail. I was assuming it was all just part of the "everyone is miserable forever" gothic horror/depression that is Ravenloft.
>> No. 170544
[x] Ask Keine about herself.
>> No. 170577
I think the thing that most strongly reveals the attitude of Youkai towards humanity is that they were willing to toss thousands of humans to vampires, rather than kill two vampires and save thousands of humans.

Especially when said vampires had launched a war of conquest on them. Really, letting creatures like Remilia and Flandre survive at all was a mistake.
>> No. 170578
>>170577
>I think the thing that most strongly reveals the attitude of Youkai towards humanity is that they were willing to toss thousands of humans to vampires, rather than kill two vampires and save thousands of humans.

Really? I would think the thing that most strongly reveals the attitude of youkai towards humanity is that they, you know, eat them. If anything, I'd say their arrangement reveals more about their attitude towards the Scarlets themselves, rather than the humans they're feeding to them, and how easy they think it would be to actually kill either of them.

After all, it's not like there are that many among them who actually like the little bloodsuckers. Why would they? Even if it weren't for the shit they're pulling, they are still direct competition and an additional drain on finite resources that are absolutely vital to their continued survival. However, they are also quite strong, to the point that their appearance upset the balance of power in Gensokyo. The fact that the youkai opted to pacify them by handing over thousands of potential meals rather than simply kill them and be done with it makes me think they either can't kill them, or they can but not without incurring losses and collateral damage so great that the "just give them what they want and hope they shut up" option seemed like the better choice.
>> No. 170583
>>170577
>thousands of humans

This is exaggeration. Vampires need less blood than humans do food, and Remilia is a light eater even for a vampire, so one human should last them several days.

Which is admittedly pretty heinous, if they keep said human alive through those days.
>> No. 170584
>>170578
>they either can't kill them, or they can but not without incurring losses and collateral damage so great that the "just give them what they want and hope they shut up" option seemed like the better choice.

So much for the whole "Yukari can kill Wizanon with a blink of an eye" thing people keep bringing up here.

Be consistent, goddamnit. Either Yukari is just criminally apathetic or she's not as strong as you think.
>> No. 170590
I doubt it was that many people from the outside taken, not when one takes say Remilia's light drinking and such into the equation.

I think the reason why they didn't try to outright kill them was the matter of slippery slopes in terms of special cases.
>> No. 170595
>>170584
Wizard was able to fight Remilia on something approaching equal footing because he's extremely intelligent, this Remilia is an idiot, and he caught her by surprise several times. Remilia is significantly faster and more powerful than Wizard in her natural form.

Yukari has the same advantages as Wizard has: super-versatile powers and incredible intelligence. (See Ran's article in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red.) However, Yukari doesn't prepare her powers, and they're quite directly border-based, so complex effects like "put up a barrier that waits for a spell, and then causes it to rebound upon its caster" would take longer and require more concentration than just casting a spell, or opening a portal with a train in it, since opening gaps is easy for Yukari. And many of Yukari's default/fast effects are less useful against Remilia than against Wizard: for example, gapping in a train as a surprise attack would probably catch Wizard off guard and kill him; but Remilia's sharp reflexes and high speed would likely let her get out of the way.

Remilia is physically stronger and faster than Yukari, as well, and might well win in a fight in the same way a fast melee character (particularly one with Mage Slayer) can take a Wizard in his natural form down in melee without problems by damaging him so he can't concentrate.

>Either Yukari is just criminally apathetic or she's not as strong as you think.
We're talking about a youkai who goes into hibernation for something like six months out of the year here. It's quite reasonable that she's still asleep, which I believe would fall under "criminally apathetic" in this dichotomy. (Also a false dichotomy. She could be all right with all Wizard has done so far that she has noticed, including the drunken rampage and his attempt to kill Remilia; she could be acting more subtly than "TRAIN TIME", for example, with the gazebo; she could also be not yet alerted of his actions regarding the Scarlet Devil on account of using spies rather than scrying on him, and will become a threat once this occurs; and I am sure that there are other possibilities as well.)

That, and I don't really think Yukari can definitely kill Wizard instantaneously; but I think it is possible, and should be taken into account with regards to Wizard's actions, since we really have no idea what power level Yukari is in this story and Yukari elsewhere has ranged from "powerful, but mortal" to "omnipotent".
>> No. 170596
>>170595
>And many of Yukari's default/fast effects are less useful against Remilia than against Wizard: for example, gapping in a train as a surprise attack would probably catch Wizard off guard and kill him; but Remilia's sharp reflexes and high speed would likely let her get out of the way.

We need dem stats for this.

>Yukari elsewhere has ranged from "powerful, but mortal" to "omnipotent".

Eh, I've seen "weak" Yukari here and there (more accurately, showing weakness and being defeated).
>> No. 170597
>>170596
>Eh, I've seen "weak" Yukari here and there (more accurately, showing weakness and being defeated).
Even in canon, Yukari has been defeated by Reimu, Marisa, and/or Sakuya. I don't know if she's ever shown weakness. Either way, she's still much stronger than an average human, stronger than an average youkai, and near the high end of the Gensokyo power scale.

>We need dem stats for this.
The closest thing that exists to D&D-style stats for Touhou characters is their abilities in the video games themselves. Yukari's train move is a special from the fighting games, where Remilia is also playable and a melee powerhouse. Unfortunately, the video games are radically different from a tabletop RPG, so stat conversion is difficult or impossible, and inferences must be drawn to some extent.
>> No. 170599
>>170597
>Even in canon, Yukari has been defeated by Reimu, Marisa, and/or Sakuya. I don't know if she's ever shown weakness. Either way, she's still much stronger than an average human, stronger than an average youkai, and near the high end of the Gensokyo power scale.

Yeah, spellcards and all that.

Also, the "showing weakness" part applies to most, if not all, people in Touhou, really.

>Unfortunately, the video games are radically different from a tabletop RPG, so stat conversion is difficult or impossible, and inferences must be drawn to some extent.

Indeed. In the end, it's all the writer's prerogative.
>> No. 170619
>>170597
besides her usual weakness: Laziness? As that's believed to be the reason why she's even beatable: Too lazy to really go all out.
>> No. 170640
>>170619
I don't think he meant "weakness" as in "weak points".

And I just hope she's too lazy to go all out so the Wizard can beat her easily.
>> No. 170642
>>170640

I have yet to see a single source in both fanon and canon that depicts her not trying when she's out to resolve an 'incident'. She may act indirectly, if she acts at all, but if she does concentrate her attention on a certain matter, she probably won't do a half-assed job at resolving it.
>> No. 170644
>>170619
>As that's believed to be the reason why she's even beatable: Too lazy to really go all out.

God, I hate this cliche so much. It keeps getting brought up in every goddamn crossover so the Touhous wouldn't get their asses handed to them.
>> No. 170655
>>170644
>so the Touhous wouldn't get their asses handed to them.

...Uh, I think you might have that backward.
>> No. 170658
>>170655
Meaning, they use that excuse to make the Touhous curbstomp their opponents when they dare to try to actually pose a legitimate threat to them.
>> No. 170661
I find it amusing that we got like, one post that noticed yuuka getting brushed to the side with her metaphorical tail between her legs. I really really hope we see the USC actually break something later, or better yet someone. also;

[X] Ask Keine about both her self and her fears, as well as her were-form, because I loves me some exposition and she's been hiding that last one under lock and key.

If only one, then
[X] Ask Keine about herself, cuz we need to know more about the romantic sub-plot on a personal level, methinks
>> No. 170662
>I find it amusing that we got like, one post that noticed yuuka getting brushed to the side with her metaphorical tail between her legs. I really really hope we see the USC actually break something later, or better yet someone. also;
I remember that in ehhh ...17th thread we had discussion about if yuuka is super evil, muderous, etc.
>> No. 170683
>>170642
>indirectly

There's a sign of it as opposed to actually taking an hands on approach.

>>170661
I found Yuuka backed down a bit too easy at Keine's threat (had Keine talked her out of it, it'd be more plausible.)
>> No. 170698
>>170683
Dunno, if I were a plant-loving dude and got threatened with something like Kusanagi I'd back down pretty quick too.

It's not a matter of whether or not Yuuka could take Keine on, it's a matter of whether could Yuuka shut Keine down before her flower field got decimated.
>> No. 170929
[X] Hey, we never figured out that gazebo, did we? What was up with that gazebo?

Awkward subject change.
>> No. 170940
>>170929

working that in NOW
>> No. 170948
>>170940
I hope it's not going to derail the keine time. I swear if his denseness lasts any longer, he's going to put Naruto and Ichigo to shame.
>> No. 170953
>>170948

His denseness is impenetrable.

By normal means.
>> No. 170961
[x] Ask Keine about herself.

The look on her face when Wiznon tells her that her EX form is attractive (when he sees it, of course) will be priceless.
>> No. 170971
>>170961

[X] Ask Keine about herself.

I think Keine's insecurity about her EX-form stem less from her appearance than from the fact her personality apparently becomes wilder and crazier as well with the change.

She might be worried she'll end up attacking and hurting Wizanon in her altered state of mind.
>> No. 171009
File 137307442137.jpg - (753.93KB , 3059x2048 , 1370717268544.jpg ) [iqdb]
171009
NEW THREAD >>171006

>'MURRICA INTENSIFIES